We, Israel, are to keep and teach the commandments. What about you?

[Jacob]

John 8:38-47.......see the beginnings of the new understanding of who "Israel" is.
Romans 4:16:
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Colosians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Galations 6:16:
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to[a] the Israel of God.
....remember here, Paul is an apostle to the Gentiles.
There's more, but please comment on this so far.

It is not saying that Israel is spiritual now, for not all Israel is Israel. Rather, the elect are of Israel. Israel is a nation, and there is the Israelite indeed. If you observe God's commandments, and accept God's Word, even His Messiah, you are of Israel. It is important to study God's Law, or Torah. There are 613 commands, commandments, laws, mitzvot, for us to observe. Have you turned to God from among the Gentiles? Then are you of Israel? You have four essentials to observe, as specified in Acts 15. Do you know about the commonwealth of Israel? Do you know about the middle wall of partition that has been done away with? Do you know that the enmity, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, has been abolished?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

You weren't grafted in, you were born Israeli...you miss the point of the text which is that the Gentiles were grafted in, that is the believing Gentiles. Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles and his Epistles or letters were written to the Gentile churches he set up.

If I was born Israeli that is news to me. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism.

 

[TestedandTried]

It is not saying that Israel is spiritual now, for not all Israel is Israel. Rather, the elect are of Israel. Israel is a nation, and there is the Israelite indeed. If you observe God's commandments, and accept God's Word, even His Messiah, you are of Israel. It is important to study God's Law, or Torah. There are 613 commands, commandments, laws, mitzvot, for us to observe. Have you turned to God from among the Gentiles? Then are you of Israel? You have four essentials to observe, as specified in Acts 15. Do you know about the commonwealth of Israel? Do you know about the middle wall of partition that has been done away with? Do you know that the enmity, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, has been abolished?

Shalom.

Jacob

Yes, yes and yes...not ignorant in that department...many others perhaps.
Jews do keep their name if they like...it is something special as Romans points out, however you are not proving out your faith well enough to take in those Scriptures I posted you...judging by your response.

 

[TestedandTried]

If I was born Israeli that is news to me. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism.

Oh, dear, so confusing to me...facts remain the same per Scripture however.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, yes and yes...not ignorant in that department...many others perhaps.
Jews do keep their name if they like...it is something special as Romans points out, however you are not proving out your faith well enough to take in those Scriptures I posted you...judging by your response.

If you are a man and have something to teach me I can be taught.

Oh, dear, so confusing to me...facts remain the same per Scripture however.

 

[turbosixx]

I'm curious. What is your stance on the new testament?

Do you call this the law of Christ?

I believe the NT is where we find the law of Christ. Paul says he was not under the law (Mosaical) but under the law of Christ.
1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

God spoke to man through different ways throughout the years, but in these last days has spoken to us through Jesus.
Heb. 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things,

Why do you say that the old law is the Mosaical law?

Gal. 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
That law that came 430 years afterward is the law Moses gave them when they came out of Egypt. God says he's giving them a new law not like the Mosaical one.
Heb. 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,

Why do you say that it was never meant to be permanent?

The old law could not forgive sins. The blood of animals cannot forgive sin.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb. 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Jacob]

Happy Chanukah!

I'm curious. What is your stance on the new testament?


I believe the NT is where we find the law of Christ. Paul says he was not under the law (Mosaical) but under the law of Christ.
1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

God spoke to man through different ways throughout the years, but in these last days has spoken to us through Jesus.
Heb. 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things,



Gal. 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
That law that came 430 years afterward is the law Moses gave them when they came out of Egypt. God says he's giving them a new law not like the Mosaical one.
Heb. 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,



The old law could not forgive sins. The blood of animals cannot forgive sin.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb. 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I do not know why you use the term Mosaical.

I have heard of the law of Christ. We are to read about what it is, namely to bear one another's burdens, in the one or two places it is mentioned between Matthew and Revelation. I do not need to refer to these books as the New Testament. I accept them. I do not know if they were included in what would be called the New Testament when the Biblical Canon (do I have the term right here?) was established, or if these books were accepted without the designation New Testament. The New Covenant is spoken of in Jeremiah and this is (in, from) the TaNaK and throughout (-*the New Testament,) or from Matthew to Revelation as well.

Why do you emphasize

the law, which came 430 years afterward,

when explaining your view of what is the old law? Old and afterward do not mix well, not that you are attempting to mix them.

That there is a New Covenant is true. It is not like the Old Covenant, which the people broke and they did not continue in it. Does this explain a time before Christ?

I believe we would need to read about sacrifice in the Torah, animal sacrifice, to know if the blood of animals can forgive sin. You said that the old law could not forgive sins. Are you thinking only of animal sacrifice here?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[turbosixx]

I do not know why you use the term Mosaical.

It's just what I've heard used to describe the law that God gave through Moses at Mt. Sinai.

Why do you emphasize

the law, which came 430 years afterward,

when explaining your view of what is the old law? Old and afterward do not mix well, not that you are attempting to mix them.

What Paul is talking about is the promise made to Abraham and that the law that came 430 after that was the law Moses gave the people.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

That there is a New Covenant is true. It is not like the Old Covenant, which the people broke and they did not continue in it. Does this explain a time before Christ?

That's the way I understand it.

I believe we would need to read about sacrifice in the Torah, animal sacrifice, to know if the blood of animals can forgive sin. You said that the old law could not forgive sins. Are you thinking only of animal sacrifice here?

Yes, only animal sacrifices. This is the way I understand it. Hebrews tells us that with animal sacrifices there was a reminder of sins because they could not forgive sin.
Heb. 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

 

[Jacob]

It's just what I've heard used to describe the law that God gave through Moses at Mt. Sinai.




What Paul is talking about is the promise made to Abraham and that the law that came 430 after that was the law Moses gave the people.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.


That's the way I understand it.


Yes, only animal sacrifices. This is the way I understand it. Hebrews tells us that with animal sacrifices there was a reminder of sins because they could not forgive sin.
Heb. 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

I believe that you are saying that when you read to take away sins you believe this to say that forgiveness is not there by animal sacrifice. Why are bulls and goats mentioned? What sacrifices involve bulls and goats? What animals are used in animal sacrifice and what is forgiveness and what is atonement in regard to animal sacrifice? What or how does the Torah read?

When the writer of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah and comments or explains something, however you see it or however it is and understanding it rightly or properly, is it that he is explaining as it was during the time of Jeremiah, before Christ, or some time in relation to or relative to Christ?

What is the Law of Moses, the Mosaic Law, and the Mosaical Law?

The promise was made to Abraham, and the law came after that.

 

[turbosixx]

I believe that you are saying that when you read to take away sins you believe this to say that forgiveness is not there by animal sacrifice. Why are bulls and goats mentioned? What sacrifices involve bulls and goats? What animals are used in animal sacrifice and what is forgiveness and what is atonement in regard to animal sacrifice? What or how does the Torah read?

Jesus said that the forgiveness of sins would first be proclaimed from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

I don't know much at all about the Torah

When the writer of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah and comments or explains something, however you see it or however it is and understanding it rightly or properly, is it that he is explaining as it was during the time of Jeremiah, before Christ, or some time in relation to or relative to Christ?

Jeremiah was looking forward to the new covenant that Jesus established by his blood.

What is the Law of Moses, the Mosaic Law, and the Mosaical Law?

The law God gave Israel at Mt. Sinai.

The promise was made to Abraham, and the law came after that.

That's the way I understand it. The promise was also before circumcision.

 

[Jacob]

Jesus said that the forgiveness of sins would first be proclaimed from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

I don't know much at all about the Torah


Jeremiah was looking forward to the new covenant that Jesus established by his blood.


The law God gave Israel at Mt. Sinai.


That's the way I understand it. The promise was also before circumcision.

The Five Books of Moses, the Torah, the Law, the Law of Moses, are by their English names Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Law of Moses was something I accepted for these books. I do not know if I accept that or if I accept something different or more than one thing, being that the Law of Moses may be mentioned in the Torah, but I do not know what it is. The Mosaic Law may refer to different things by different people. I do not get much help with this. I do not know if I can come back to you if my understanding changes, but we can study it together or ask for help if you wish. I do not know what Mosaical Law means. I encourage you in your Biblical Studies. Do you want to study the Torah? Do you want to study the TaNaK? I read, study, observe, keep, and teach the Torah. Do you want to study animal sacrifice or sacrifice (animal sacrifice) in the Torah? Do you just want to study the Torah? You can if you want to, if you have the desire to. I have read some of the TaNaK, or the TaNaKh or Tanakh. Jerusalem is referred to there yes, and elsewhere. Jerusalem is in Israel. It still is. What do you mean that Jesus established by His blood? This is not found in Jeremiah. What do you mean using the word established?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[turbosixx]

The Five Books of Moses, the Torah, the Law, the Law of Moses, are by their English names Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

That's it.

Do you want to study the Torah?

There's a lot I want to study and better understand. Torah is one of them.

What do you mean that Jesus established by His blood? This is not found in Jeremiah. What do you mean using the word established?

Shalom.

Jacob

Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Matt. 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Heb.8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,

 

[Jacob]

That's it.


There's a lot I want to study and better understand. Torah is one of them.



Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Matt. 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Heb.8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,

I see where your confusion lies. You have combined Jesus' words with what God said He would do.

Is there anything that hinders your ability or desire to study the Torah? I can help you if you wish. In any case, it is good to hear that you are open to Torah study.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[beameup]

I do not believe that Israel is symbolic at all. I am of the nation of Israel. This is different from being grafted in.

The "nation of Israel" is in the Middle-East.
Only citizens in residency can call themselves "of the Nation of Israel".
As well, "Israel" has not yet entered into the "New Covenant" because they rejected Messiah.
After "much tribulation" Israel (what's left of it) will receive Messiah upon His return.

 

[Jacob]

Happy Chanukah!

The "nation of Israel" is in the Middle-East.
Only citizens in residency can call themselves "of the Nation of Israel".
As well, "Israel" has not yet entered into the "New Covenant" because
they rejected Messiah.

You are incorrect. There are those of Israel who live outside the land. I am of the people or nation of Israel. I observe the Torah. I do live outside the land of Israel.

I do not know what you mean by saying the Middle-East.

I do not know why you are talking about Israel entering into the New Covenant. The New Covenant was given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach. It is because of Jesus' instruction in Matthew 5:18-19 that I came to observe the Commandments and in so doing become a Jew of Israel. The question is if Gentiles are also a part of the New Covenant, since Jeremiah does indicate the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Why do you say "not yet" when I am a New Covenant believer, a Jew, of Israel, and Torah Observant? The New Covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. What do you mean by citizens in residency?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[beameup]

Happy Chanukah!

You are incorrect. There are those of Israel who live outside the land. I am of the people or nation of Israel. I observe the Torah. I do live outside the land of Israel.
Jacob

You are just deceiving yourself.
The land has been open now since 1948, and YHWH is "regathering" HIS people there.
You are "in Babylon", not "the Holy Land". You obviously prefer "Babylon"
or you would have felt the call of YHWH to return to Israel.
However, lets face it, you have no GENETIC ties to Jews, so they wouldn't allow you to immigrate.

 

[Jacob]

You are just deceiving yourself.
The land has been open now since 1948, and YHWH is "regathering" HIS people there.
You are "in Babylon", not "the Holy Land". You obviously prefer "Babylon"
or you would have felt the call of YHWH to return to Israel.
However, lets face it, you have no GENETIC ties to Jews, so they wouldn't allow you to immigrate.

I want to make aliyah or move to Israel. I have been encouraged to apply for immigration. I do not believe that I need any paperwork to be of Israel and observe God's Law. YHVH is my God. Why do you say Babylon and the Holy Land? I do not know what you mean by I would have felt the call to RETURN to Israel. I have never been to Israel. What do you mean the land has been open now since 1948?

I am a Jew, of Israel. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism. I read, study, observe, keep, and teach the Torah. I keep and teach the commandments. I observe and teach the Torah.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[turbosixx]

I see where your confusion lies. You have combined Jesus' words with what God said He would do.

Could you please explain what you see me confused about.

Is there anything that hinders your ability or desire to study the Torah? I can help you if you wish. In any case, it is good to hear that you are open to Torah study.

Shalom.

Jacob

If I have any questions about the Torah, I will definitely ask you.

 

[Jacob]

Could you please explain what you see me confused about.



If I have any questions about the Torah, I will definitely ask you.

God said that He would establish a new covenant and you say that Jesus established a new covenant. Did you mean something different when you said something different than what the Scripture said?

 

[turbosixx]

God said that He would establish a new covenant and you say that Jesus established a new covenant. Did you mean something different when you said something different than what the Scripture said?

Jn. 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.