ECT We Don't Hear Much From Today's Prophecy Teachers, Why Do You Think That Is?

[iamaberean]

The end of the age of the law happened much earlier than 70 AD:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

The law of commandments contained in the ordinances was abolished in order that God could reconcile both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers into one Body, the Body of Christ. And the Body of Christ began many years before 70 AD.

You are right, but many of those people had not, and would not accept Jesus. I related this to be like the time that the children of Israel had to wander in the wilderness because of their unbelief. This is the same, they continued as if they were still living under the law. When the temple was destroyed it ended any activity related to the law. No more ability to sacrifice, no more ability to ask for forgiveness, no more of anything related to the age of the law.

I know the age of Law had passed, but even Paul, Peter and John went back to the temple at different times in the book of Acts.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I know the age of Law had passed, but even Paul, Peter and John went back to the temple at different times in the book of Acts.

The Preterists say that the end of the age did not happen until 70 AD but they have to invent another "end of the age" than the one the Lord Jesus spoke of at Matthew 13.

 

[iamaberean]

The Preterists say that the end of the age did not happen until 70 AD but they have to invent another "end of the age" than the one the Lord Jesus spoke of at Matthew 13.

I am a Preterist only because I believe much of prophecy has been fulfilled. It doesn't really matter to me how they put their timeline.

All prophecy has been fulfilled except for the time when God will come and set up His kingdom here on earth.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[iamaberean]

What days are we living in today?

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

When is the time of the end?

Few realize that the prophecies of the Old Testament pertain, primarily, to this 20th century—and not, in many cases, to Old Testament times at all.

We know this because God had made a covenent with the children of Isreal and if they sinned against Him he would with hold his blessings for a time, times, and a half (2520 years).

Because the children of Israel did sin, Israel was invaded by the Serians and taken captive in 740 BC.
Let us subtract 740 BC from 2520 years and we get 1780. What happened in 1780, America went to war to win it’s independents .

What difference does that make? Well the first settlers in America were from England, for sure they were Christians and were also of the children of Israel.

Prophecy fulfilled when God said.
Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation (America*) and a company of nations (Great Britain*) shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

This has been fulfillment of prophecy that will bring about the setting up of The Kingdom of God here on earth.

I pray it will be soon!

* is my inserts

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All prophecy has been fulfilled except for the time when God will come and set up His kingdom here on earth.

When was this prophecy fulfilled?:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:1-4).​

 

[iamaberean]

When was this prophecy fulfilled?:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:1-4).​

It happened in 70 AD. One can read more about it from Josephus: The Wars Of The Jews.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It happened in 70 AD. One can read more about it from Josephus: The Wars Of The Jews.

Jerusalem was totally defeated in 70 AD so you must think that the Lord Jesus fought against all the nations that came against Jerusalem but lost that battle:

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle" (Zech.14:3).​

You don't have much confidence in the Lord Jesus' ability to wage war, do you?

 

[iamaberean]

Jerusalem was totally defeated in 70 AD so you must think that the Lord Jesus fought against all the nations that came against Jerusalem but lost that battle:

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle" (Zech.14:3).​

You don't have much confidence in the Lord Jesus' ability to wage war, do you?

From the jewishvirtuallibrary

Chapters 9–14 are unclear, and the historical allusions they contain remain contested. There is no apparent temporal connection between them and the contents of the earlier chapters of the book. The two sections differ both in form and style. Much of earlier scholarship concentrated on analyzing the text into sources without attempting to account for why the sources were combined.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

From the jewishvirtuallibrary

Chapters 9–14 are unclear, and the historical allusions they contain remain contested. There is no apparent temporal connection between them and the contents of the earlier chapters of the book. The two sections differ both in form and style. Much of earlier scholarship concentrated on analyzing the text into sources without attempting to account for why the sources were combined.

Are you still arguing that Zechariah 14 has already been fulfilled and the Lord Jesus fought a losing battle?

 

[iamaberean]

Are you still arguing that Zechariah 14 has already been fulfilled and the Lord Jesus fought a losing battle?

No more arguing on my part. If the people who translated God's word can not determine if it really belongs, how is it you, or anyone else, know. The rest of prophecy agrees that there is only one more time that Jesus comes. That will be the time He sets up His kingdom here on earth.

"Chapters 9–14 are unclear, and the historical allusions they contain remain contested" say the experts!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No more arguing on my part. If the people who translated God's word can not determine if it really belongs, how is it you, or anyone else, know. The rest of prophecy agrees that there is only one more time that Jesus comes. That will be the time He sets up His kingdom here on earth.

There are many things which the people who translated God's word did not fully understand, as evidenced by what Peter said here:

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into" (1 Pet.1:9-12).​

The Old Testament prophets did not understand the prophecies they themselves foretold in regard to what the sufferings of Christ signified. So just because the OT prophets did not have a full understanding of the prophecies of Zechariah 14 does not prove anything about the fulfillment of these prophecies. Besides, it is clear that their fulfillment remains in the future because there has never been a time when the Lord Jesus' feet stood on the Mount of Olives and He fought against all the nations which will come against Jerusalem.

 

[iamaberean]

What days are we living in today?

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

When is the time of the end?

Few realize that the prophecies of the Old Testament pertain, primarily, to this 20th century—and not, in many cases, to Old Testament times at all.

We know this because God had made a covenent with the children of Isreal and if they sinned against Him he would with hold his blessings for a time, times, and a half (2520 years).

Because the children of Israel did sin, Israel was invaded by the Serians and taken captive in 740 BC.
Let us subtract 740 BC from 2520 years and we get 1780. What happened in 1780, America went to war to win it’s independents .

What difference does that make? Well the first settlers in America were from England, for sure they were Christians and were also of the children of Israel.

Prophecy fulfilled when God said.
Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation (America*) and a company of nations Great Britain* shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

This has been fulfillment of prophecy that will bring about the setting up of The Kingdom of God here on earth.

I pray it will be soon!

* is my inserts

In the above post I made a statement of time:
We know this because God had made a covenent with the children of Isreal and if they sinned against Him he would with hold his blessings for a time, times, and a half (2520 years)

It should have read:
We know this because God had made a covenent with the children of Isreal and if they sinned against Him he would with hold his blessings for 7 times (360 yrs)=(2520 years).

2520 is right total but the formula was wrong.

 

[Lon]

[h=1]We Don't Hear Much From Today's Prophecy Teachers, Why Do You Think That Is?[/h]

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

1) Because God is clearly not using prophets as His mode of communication at this time (Office not extent at this time).
2) The scriptures themselves, are sufficient. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 "...complete..."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching...

Lon, are you premillennial or postmillennial?

And do you believe that the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21has already happened or does it remain in the future?

Thanks!

 

[Lon]

Lon, are you premillennial or postmillennial?

And do you believe that the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21has already happened or does it remain in the future?

Thanks!

Last question first: Matthew 24 has already happened by my count. As far as the millennial reign, I've been on the gambit from pre to post and a-.

Which now? I'm not sure I've joined a side, because I often see at least dual fulfillment in a lot of prophecy (if not more according to type sometimes). I tend rather to be a 'wait-and-see-millennial' because of it (sorry, about like nailing jello to the wall for an answer, apologies).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Last question first: Matthew 24 has already happened by my count.

Lon, the Lord Jesus' words at Matthew 24 were in answer to the disciple's question about what would happen at "the end of the age" (Mt.24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus had spoken about what would happen then and He said that sat the end of the age there will be a world wide harvest:

"Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mt.13:37-42).​

Since no world wide harvest by the LORD has ever happened in history then it remains in the future so the fulfillment of the things of which the Lord foretold as happening in the 24th chapter of Matthew also remain in the future.

 

[iamaberean]

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

1) Because God is clearly not using prophets as His mode of communication at this time (Office not extent at this time).
2) The scriptures themselves, are sufficient. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 "...complete..."

Signs of the End of the Age

In order to properly interpret scripture one must ask who, what and where and when'
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Who was asking the above question? Disciples.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

To whom did Jesus respond to. Disciples "he said unto them" "let no man deceive you."

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

To whom did Jesus speak to: "They will deliver you (the disciples) up to be afflicted and shall kill you" We know that happened to some of them, Peter and Paul in Rome - Andrew - Thomas and Phillip.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We know the disciples when into all the known world of that time.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

That happen around 66 AD and ended in 70 AD. The official end of the Age of Law.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

Heaven and earth is referring to the temple, where man and God would meet.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We know the disciples when into all the known world of that time.

It was the "gospel of grace" that went to all the world and not the "gospel of the kingdom":

"The word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth" (Col 1:5,6).​

The Apostle Paul was given a ministry to the Jews and one to the Gentiles and in the following verse the Lord speaks about those two ministries:

"But the Lord said to Ananias, 'Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel" (Acts 9:15).​

In the following passage Paul speaks specifically about those two ministries:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more" (Acts 20:24-25; KJV).​

The preaching of the "kingdom of God" was the same exact "gospel" which the Twelve preached to the Jews in the following passage:

"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick...And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where" (Lk.9:1-2,6; KJV).​

The facts reveal that when they were preaching that gospel the Twelve were not even aware the the Lord Jesus was going to die. After being given that command and after preaching that gospel the transgiguration followed (Lk.9:29-36; Mk.9:2-13). Then after the Twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom and after the transfiguration we read the following exchange between the Lord Jesus and the Twelve:

"They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.' But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it" (Mk.9:30-32).​

The facts reveal that the Twelve did not even know He was going to die as late as shortly before the Cross:

"Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.' The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about" (Lk.18:31-34).​

These facts prove conclusively that the gospel which the Twelve were preaching at Luke 9:6 was not the same gospel which Paul referred to in the following way:

"For the message of the cross, is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor.1:18.).​

The "gospel of the grace of God" cannot be preached apart from the fact that believers are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb (1 Pet.18-19) and that is exactly the same "redemption" Paul speaks about when declaring the "gospel of the grace of God," that believers "are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

 

[Lon]

Lon, the Lord Jesus' words at Matthew 24 were in answer to the disciple's question about what would happen at "the end of the age" (Mt.24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus had spoken about what would happen then and He said that sat the end of the age there will be a world wide harvest:

"Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mt.13:37-42).​

Since no world wide harvest by the LORD has ever happened in history then it remains in the future so the fulfillment of the things of which the Lord foretold as happening in the 24th chapter of Matthew also remain in the future.

There is a large distance (for me) between Matthew 13 and 24 else we'd have to 'persevere to the end.'

 

[Lon]

Signs of the End of the Age

In order to properly interpret scripture one must ask who, what and where and when'
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Who was asking the above question? Disciples.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

To whom did Jesus respond to. Disciples "he said unto them" "let no man deceive you."

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

To whom did Jesus speak to: "They will deliver you (the disciples) up to be afflicted and shall kill you" We know that happened to some of them, Peter and Paul in Rome - Andrew - Thomas and Phillip.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We know the disciples when into all the known world of that time.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

That happen around 66 AD and ended in 70 AD. The official end of the Age of Law.

Then are you post-millennial, or amillennial? (I do tend to agree with your interpretation on this).

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

Heaven and earth is referring to the temple, where man and God would meet.

Here is why I'm a bit hard to pin down. For me, this certainly can be talking about the end Revelation 21:1