He's speaking to me, it seems, but Northwye writes book-length posts and probably wonders why most don't respond.
I might later.
ECT We are not Israel, but the Body of Christ
- Thread starter heir
- Start date
He's speaking to me, it seems, but Northwye writes book-length posts and probably wonders why most don't respond.
I might later.
Great post, brother :thumb:
The issue of the land promises in the Old Covenant was brought up on this thread. Thats what I was focused on, not with debating with any individual. And byte speak tends to generate arguments because often one or a very few lines is ambiguous.
How does a person develop a longer attention span? By becoming interested in a topic so that you are able to pay attention at least to seven or eight short paragraphs, to stat with. You do not develop a longer attention span by avoiding written messages that are longer than a few paragraphs.
How does a person develop a longer attention span? By becoming interested in a topic so that you are able to pay attention at least to seven or eight short paragraphs, to stat with. You do not develop a longer attention span by avoiding written messages that are longer than a few paragraphs.
God's Truth
New member
Thanks for clarifying, and I definitely agree about long posts.
God's Truth
New member
The Physical Land aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled already, scripture confirms it here Joshua 23:14
14And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
Josh 21:43-45
43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
Neh 9:8
8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:
That aspect of the Promise has been done. The anti type fulfillment was fulfilled with the glorification of the Church all of Abraham's Spiritual Seed by faith in God through Jesus Christ. Gen 17:5-8
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
God's Truth
New member
I just gave you scripture that tells us God gave the earthy land promises.
Now I am going to give you scriptures that prove there is a spiritual aspect to it:
Those who are saved are being built into a city in heaven.
1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Revelation 3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
Revelation 21:21 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Hebrews 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Hebrews 11:16
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Right Divider
Body part
Read the WHOLE passage oh silly one.
Josh 23:13-16 (AKJV/PCE)
(23:13) Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. (23:14) And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof. (23:15) Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. (23:16) When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.
(23:13) Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. (23:14) And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof. (23:15) Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. (23:16) When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.
Hardly sounds like "the land for ever" now does it?
Interplanner
Well-known member
No, and besides, all this is several centuries too late to help Israel in the 1st century when the issues are completely different. There are completely different reasons why Israel was ejected and the land destroyed in the generation following Jesus.
God's Truth
New member
I already explained before that the earthy land promises came with conditions.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But the conditions were met; those promises were fulfilled in that sense; and still, says Hebrews, they were not what the believers were looking for who were awaiting the Gospel, ch 11.
Right Divider
Body part
God did not put conditions on it when He gave it to Abram... ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE.
"Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.
In Christian Zionism Israel is always Israel, that is, it is always Old
Covenant Israel for the followers of John Darby C.I. Scofield and Lewis S.
Chafer, and cannot be the Israel of God, (Galatians 6 : 16). Israel
cannot be anything for the Christian Zionists but the multitude of physical
Old Covenant Israel, defined as Israel of the flesh by the physical
bloodline. In Christian Zionism there are no children of the promise
counted for the seed who are Israel but different from Israel of the flesh (Romans 9: 6-8).
Israel cannot be the ministration of death, the ministration of
condemnation which is done away with and there is no Israel as the
ministration of the Spirit in II Corinthians 3: 7-11 for the Christian
Zionists. And contrary to the Christian Zionists the Old Covenant was
not done away with
as Hebrews 10: 9 says.
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal
kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity,
'...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp.
315-323..
Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at
least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great
covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a
land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered
throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer
16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are
gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa
60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8)
under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."
Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people.
Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447
Scripture is too subtle for the guy who is in the spiritual condition of
the natural man who does not discern the things of the Spirit in I
Corinthians 2: 14.. So dispensationalism or Christian Zionism changed the
interpretation of the Bible to supposedly make it consistent with a
theology honoring the chosen people by their physical bloodline.
prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion
is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always
literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago,
Moody Bible Institute, 1907), pp. 45-46.
In Christian Zionism Israel is always Israel, that is, it is always Old
Covenant Israel for the followers of John Darby C.I. Scofield and Lewis S.
Chafer, and cannot be the Israel of God, (Galatians 6 : 16). Israel
cannot be anything for the Christian Zionists but the multitude of physical
Old Covenant Israel, defined as Israel of the flesh by the physical
bloodline. In Christian Zionism there are no children of the promise
counted for the seed who are Israel but different from Israel of the flesh (Romans 9: 6-8).
Israel cannot be the ministration of death, the ministration of
condemnation which is done away with and there is no Israel as the
ministration of the Spirit in II Corinthians 3: 7-11 for the Christian
Zionists. And contrary to the Christian Zionists the Old Covenant was
not done away with
as Hebrews 10: 9 says.
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal
kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity,
'...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer,
Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp.
315-323..
Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at
least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great
covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a
land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered
throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer
16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are
gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa
60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8)
under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."
Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people.
Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93
(October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447
Scripture is too subtle for the guy who is in the spiritual condition of
the natural man who does not discern the things of the Spirit in I
Corinthians 2: 14.. So dispensationalism or Christian Zionism changed the
interpretation of the Bible to supposedly make it consistent with a
theology honoring the chosen people by their physical bloodline.
Right Divider
Body part
This one of the silliest posts that I've read in a while.
Scripture makes it clear that, on earth, there is a chosen people with a physical relationship. If you don't like it, that too bad for you.
Deut 7:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(7:6) For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
Deut 14:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(14:2) For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.
Does God mean what He says? YES, He DOES!
Is it your story that genealogy was once important and now has been forever removed?
Matt 1:1-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (1:2) Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; (1:3) And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; (1:4) And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; (1:5) And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; (1:6) And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias; (1:7) And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; (1:8) And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; (1:9) And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; (1:10) And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; (1:11) And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: (1:12) And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; (1:13) And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; (1:14) And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; (1:15) And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; (1:16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. (1:17) So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.
God certainly made sure that we know Jesus' physical decadency.
God's Truth
New member
There are conditions to everything that God says.
Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."
God's Truth
New member
The conditions were met, the promise WAS GIVEN, just AS the scriptures say God did NOT fail in giving all the promises. However, He also promised that He would take it away from them IF THEY DID WRONG, and HE DID.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I agree. Except that in the 1st century situation, the conditions were not the same. It wasn't about idolatry; that's not what risked the land. I suppose you might have some secret theory that Judaism's leaders were involved in idolatry that I've never heard, but that would mean they were secretly Roman-pagan, and that's why so many were in high positions in city authority.
God's Truth
New member
No. You are going off into things that are way off. THE JEWS WERE ALREADY SCATTERED AND HAD RULERS FROM ANOTHER NATION OVER THEM.
God promised a New Covenant that He would make.
The New Covenant would be based on faith.
The Jews who did the ceremonial works, just to go to the temple to worship God...those Jews did right by doing what God said about making themselves clean with the purification/ceremonial works; however, it did NOT take faith to do those works. See, God did not like it that the Jews could sin, do a righteous act like give a sin offering---but not really be sorry for their sins.
God said He would make a New Covenant.
He did make a New Covenant.
When Jesus came to earth, Jesus gave us the guidelines for the New Covenant
This NEW COVENANT would be based on faith---unlike the OLD COVENANT.
When Jesus came to earth, he came FIRST FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ALREADY BELONGED TO GOD BY FAITH.
Those are the people called the sheep.
They were God's, but now they had to go through Jesus to remain with God
The rest of the Jews who did not have faith...God cut them off and hardened them for a time, because God sent Jesus first to those who were made clean by faith and, of course, obedience, by the repenting of sins.
Jesus said that when he would be crucified, then all people could come to him to be saved, even those cut off Jews who did not at one time have faith.
Jesus came first for those WHO ALREADY BELONGED TO GOD, they were WASHED WITH THE BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE that was given by John the baptizer, the forerunner, the PREPARER.
Those who want to be saved must also become as sheep, and we must prepare our hearts for Jesus by repenting of our sins.
God's Truth
New member
What good is coming to Jesus the High Priest and Interceder if you do not confess and REPENT OF YOUR sins?
God's Truth
New member
SINS are what KEPT US FROM GOD.
Repent of sins means to rid yourself of those sins.
Jesus will live with you and help and comfort you to keep obeying.
Repent of sins means to rid yourself of those sins.
Jesus will live with you and help and comfort you to keep obeying.
We aren't Jews, gt!