Watch out, do not be deceived.

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Luke 21:8
He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.

Now I am not saying 'I am He' or that 'the time is near'. I am just a man who believes Jesus will return on the 6000th year.

Amos 3:7 – Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

And God's plan is that 7 years before Jesus returns the Anti-Christ will appear and will take over the world thus beginning the Tribulation.

Therefore we will know who the real prophets of God are, because they will accurately predict when this happens.

I believe the tribulation begins in 2022.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

blank

 

[csuguy]

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

 

[jamie]

I am just a man who believes Jesus will return on the 6000th year.

We are nearing the end of the sixth millennium.

 

[DavidK]

Luke 21:8
... Now I am not saying 'I am He' or that 'the time is near'. I am just a man who believes Jesus will return on the 6000th year. ...

...And God's plan is that 7 years before Jesus returns the Anti-Christ will appear and will take over the world thus beginning the Tribulation. ...

...I believe the tribulation begins in 2022.

How did you come to decide that 2022 AD = 6000 years from creation? Direct revelation, or by some system of calculation?

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Is it possible that this was true when Jesus said it, but at some point before His return it will not be true?

 

[csuguy]

Is it possible that this was true when Jesus said it, but at some point before His return it will not be true?

I suppose once you were in the midst of the tribulation it may be possible to recognize it; depending upon how literal or figurative the events in revelation end up being. This is a slippery slope, however. History has shown us time and again how people take their circumstances and desires and transform that into false end time prophecies and "calculations."

There have been many such group over the last several years; seems like every time I turn around there's another group of nutters claiming to have deciphered the hidden calculations in the bible, and, of course, the judgement is never more than a few years away. When their false prophecy (er, "calculations") fail, they simply "correct" some rounding error and get another couple years before it fails again.

Sticking to scripture, there is certainly no reason for Matthew 24:36 to be invalidated at any point in time until that day arrives. In fact, the scriptures often liken that day to a stealthy thief, coming when you least expect it.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.​

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

When Jesus said ‘no one knows the day’ He said it in the present tense, He did not say no one would ever know. Beside I was giving the year.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

How did you come to decide that 2022 AD = 6000 years from creation? Direct revelation, or by some system of calculation?



Is it possible that this was true when Jesus said it, but at some point before His return it will not be true?

I said 2022 will begin the 7 year tribulation and therefore it will be the year 5993AM. Jesus returns 7 years later. When Jesus said ‘no one knows the day’ He said it in the present tense, He did not say no one would ever know other wise it would contradict:

Amos 3:7 – Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

I came across this through calculation, using dates in the Bible, there are many who are on to this but I think this site is pretty accurate:

https://guidetothebible.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/guidechronologylatest1.pdf

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I suppose once you were in the midst of the tribulation it may be possible to recognize it; depending upon how literal or figurative the events in revelation end up being. This is a slippery slope, however. History has shown us time and again how people take their circumstances and desires and transform that into false end time prophecies and "calculations."

There have been many such group over the last several years; seems like every time I turn around there's another group of nutters claiming to have deciphered the hidden calculations in the bible, and, of course, the judgement is never more than a few years away. When their false prophecy (er, "calculations") fail, they simply "correct" some rounding error and get another couple years before it fails again.

Sticking to scripture, there is certainly no reason for Matthew 24:36 to be invalidated at any point in time until that day arrives. In fact, the scriptures often liken that day to a stealthy thief, coming when you least expect it.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.​

As said when Jesus said ‘no one knows the day’ He said it in the present tense, He did not say no one would ever know other wise it would contradict:

Amos 3:7 – Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

And Paul also said:

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5 – 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that
this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

This was for the believers your verse is for unbelievers who will be surprised by it.

 

[csuguy]

When Jesus said ‘no one knows the day’ He said it in the present tense, He did not say no one would ever know. Beside I was giving the year.

While in the strictest literal interpretation of the verse you are correct, you are clearly in violation of the Spirit of the verse. He may have spoke in the present tense, but that is not intended as a limitation to the truth of the verse. And if we add in the testimony of the rest of the New Testament, it is clear that that day will come in secret, like a thief, when we least expect it.

Yes, even trying to "just" calculate the year in which the day is to come is in violation of the Spirit of these scriptures. If you knew the night when you were to be robbed, you would simply remain vigilant for the night to ensure that you weren't surprised and overtaken. The intent behind keeping the day secret is to enforce the need for constant vigilance; we must persevere at all times, not knowing when the end will come.

 

[csuguy]

As said when Jesus said ‘no one knows the day’ He said it in the present tense, He did not say no one would ever know other wise it would contradict:

Amos 3:7 – Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

And Paul also said:

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5 – 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that
this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

This was for the believers your verse is for unbelievers who will be surprised by it.

Even the Son himself says that he does not know the day or the hour. Nor do the angels in heaven. Tell me: if this is only meant to be a secret to unbelievers, then why does the Son not know? Why do the angels not know? What value is there in hiding this matter from them, even if only temporarily?

You are in clear violation of the Spirit of the scriptures on this matter. This information was never intended to be revealed to anyone ahead of time; it is supposed to be a secret.

Also, the time being a secret is not in violation of those scriptures saying that God reveals his plans ahead of time. We have been told of the end times and the judgement; so what God is planning is not a secret.

Look at Christ. The prophecies concerning Christ were given far ahead of time. That doesn't mean that the Jews were able to properly interpret them to know the exact time or manner in which these prophecies would be fulfilled. In fact, they had him crucified because they didn't realize who he was. Even with God's plan unfolding before their very eyes, they were blind.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Even the Son himself says that he does not know the day or the hour. Nor do the angels in heaven. Tell me: if this is only meant to be a secret to unbelievers, then why does the Son not know? Why do the angels not know? What value is there in hiding this matter from them, even if only temporarily?

You are in clear violation of the Spirit of the scriptures on this matter. This information was never intended to be revealed to anyone ahead of time; it is supposed to be a secret.

Also, the time being a secret is not in violation of those scriptures saying that God reveals his plans ahead of time. We have been told of the end times and the judgement; so what God is planning is not a secret.

Look at Christ. The prophecies concerning Christ were given far ahead of time. That doesn't mean that the Jews were able to properly interpret them to know the exact time or manner in which these prophecies would be fulfilled. In fact, they had him crucified because they didn't realize who he was. Even with God's plan unfolding before their very eyes, they were blind.

You're contradicting yourself; 'While in the strictest literal interpretation of the verse you are correct'

Make your mind up.

 

[csuguy]

You're contradicting yourself; 'While in the strictest literal interpretation of the verse you are correct'

Make your mind up.

There is no contradiction; one of the major topics of scripture is the Letter of the Law versus the Spirit of the Law. There is a difference between how you can choose to interpret a verse by sticking to an overly literal interpretation as opposed to what that verse was intended to convey.

For instance, sticking to a strict literal interpretation of the Law you can conclude that Priests are in violation of the Sabbath. However, when you understand the intent, the Spirit, behind the Law, you realize that there is no such violation taking place.

Matthew 12:1-14 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.​

 

[DavidK]

I suppose once you were in the midst of the tribulation it may be possible to recognize it; depending upon how literal or figurative the events in revelation end up being.

Certainly, one would expect someone will be able to tell from the point at which the abomination that brings desolation is established and the witnesses appear. Otherwise naming a specific span of time afterward would be kind of pointless.

The question then, is that if scripture indicates someone should definitely be able to tell at that point down to the counting of days, but only the Father knew when Jesus made that statement, is it possible that there are points along the way where it will become clear to those who are watching for it?

This is a slippery slope, however. History has shown us time and again how people take their circumstances and desires and transform that into false end time prophecies and "calculations."

Definitely, though the great tragedy of that mistake is not in a wrong date, but what people did with it. The infamous ones are infamous because people thought they could escape, store up provision, shut down their lives in preparation, rather than using it as motivation to seek the Lord with all their heart and witness boldly of His truth.

There are plenty of ministers who have set dates along the way that we still look back on with respect, because all it did was motivate them in loving Jesus with everything they had.

Sticking to scripture, there is certainly no reason for Matthew 24:36 to be invalidated at any point in time until that day arrives. In fact, the scriptures often liken that day to a stealthy thief, coming when you least expect it.

For whom was Jesus saying it would come like a thief? For everyone, or for a specific group of people?

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.​

You stopped a little short there. What about 1 Thessalonians 5:4?

 

[DavidK]

I said 2022 will begin the 7 year tribulation and therefore it will be the year 5993AM. Jesus returns 7 years later.

Ah, my mistake, thanks. 2029, then.

I came across this through calculation, using dates in the Bible, there are many who are on to this but I think this site is pretty accurate:

https://guidetothebible.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/guidechronologylatest1.pdf

Thanks, will have to take a look at that later.

 

[csuguy]

The question then, is that if scripture indicates someone should definitely be able to tell at that point down to the counting of days, but only the Father knew when Jesus made that statement, is it possible that there are points along the way where it will become clear to those who are watching for it?

Based upon what the scriptures have to say on the matter, the answer is no. If Jesus, the Son of God (or God himself if you maintain the Trinity), the sole mediator between God and men was not given this information despite having everything under put under him - excepting God - then there is zero reason to think that some of us will be given this information ahead of time. Scripture is clear that it is an intentional secret known only to the Father, and there is never any suggestion that this will at any point change until it is already upon us.

There are plenty of ministers who have set dates along the way that we still look back on with respect, because all it did was motivate them in loving Jesus with everything they had.

I've never heard of anyone speaking of false prophets who lied to everyone's face, manipulated them, stole their money, tricking them into making all manner of foolish life altering consequences - even fatal consequences - with such admiration. They may inspire temporary motivation in those they have duped - but what happens when their followers realize it was all a lie? What happens to their devotion and motivation then? They are worse off than before.

There is a reason that the scriptures are so strict about such an issue: you are lying to everyone from a supposed position of spiritual authority. You are using God's name to do these evil deeds. Not only is this sin punishable by death in the Law, but in Revelations we are given the following warning:

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.​

So this is not a matter to be taken lightly. It is a serious offense with serious consequences.

For whom was Jesus saying it would come like a thief? For everyone, or for a specific group of people? You stopped a little short there. What about 1 Thessalonians 5:4?

Jesus never specified that it would come like a thief for this or that group, simply that that day would come like a thief - period. Scripture never makes any exception.

Now, as for 1 Thessalonians 5:

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord [a]will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction [c]will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you [d]like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as [e]others do, but let us be alert and [f]sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be [g]sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore [h]encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.​

This does not say that we shall know the day or hour (or year, or century, etc) ahead of time. It says that since we are not of the darkness, we will not be overtaken when that day arrives. And we won't be overtaken BECAUSE we are not asleep, BECAUSE we are alert and sober - Not because we received secret information about when that day would arrive. This is one of many calls in scripture for us to persevere. If you maintain constant vigilance, if you persevere in doing what is right and good - the will of God - then you have nothing to fear.

 

[DavidK]

Based upon what the scriptures have to say on the matter, the answer is no. If Jesus, the Son of God (or God himself if you maintain the Trinity), the sole mediator between God and men was not given this information despite having everything under put under him - excepting God - then there is zero reason to think that some of us will be given this information ahead of time. Scripture is clear that it is an intentional secret known only to the Father, and there is never any suggestion that this will at any point change until it is already upon us.

Isn't the scripture clear that at some point someone, at least, will be able to count down 1260 days?

Is it possible that Jesus didn't know because it was not to be revealed from until much closer to the time? I think "no one will ever know" isn't terribly clear from "only the Father knows".

I've never heard of anyone speaking of false prophets who lied to everyone's face, manipulated them, stole their money, tricking them into making all manner of foolish life altering consequences - even fatal consequences - with such admiration. They may inspire temporary motivation in those they have duped - but what happens when their followers realize it was all a lie? What happens to their devotion and motivation then? They are worse off than before.

It's probably important to make the distinction between lying and being wrong. In order to lie, you have to know what you are saying isn't true.

Do you consider John Wesley to be a false prophet who manipulated people and stole their money?

I do agree, that if someone says they know He is returning on a date and convinces people to do stupid things to get ready, they are false. But the good thing is that if I think He is returning in a year or one hundred, the way to get ready is the same: love the Lord with all my heart, and love others as myself. Pray, walk out the sermon on the mount. If someone does these things because they feel the return of Jesus is imminent, they will be no worse off if they are wrong and he continues to tarry.

There is a reason that the scriptures are so strict about such an issue: you are lying to everyone from a supposed position of spiritual authority. You are using God's name to do these evil deeds. Not only is this sin punishable by death in the Law, but in Revelations we are given the following warning:

I fail to see the strictness you are referring to outside of the tradition of the church.

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.​

So this is not a matter to be taken lightly. It is a serious offense with serious consequences.

Oh definitely, adding or subtracting is terrible. But surely you don't think were supposed to avoid trying to understand what is written there. There's a difference between adding on and saying what you think the Lord is saying through His Revelation.

Jesus never specified that it would come like a thief for this or that group, simply that that day would come like a thief - period. Scripture never makes any exception.

Now, as for 1 Thessalonians 5:

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord [a]will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction [c]will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you [d]like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as [e]others do, but let us be alert and [f]sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be [g]sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore [h]encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.​

This does not say that we shall know the day or hour (or year, or century, etc) ahead of time. It says that since we are not of the darkness, we will not be overtaken when that day arrives. And we won't be overtaken BECAUSE we are not asleep, BECAUSE we are alert and sober - Not because we received secret information about when that day would arrive. This is one of many calls in scripture for us to persevere. If you maintain constant vigilance, if you persevere in doing what is right and good - the will of God - then you have nothing to fear.

It seems the plain meaning to me is "it comes like a thief, but not to you because you are watching". I don't think the Church will know at some point because of "secret information", but because they will be watching and will have the Word of God, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, in their hearts.

 

[George Affleck]

The great tribulation took place when God used the Roman army to conquer the holy city, Jerusalem, in 70 AD and desecrate the temple.

No sense looking for something in the future that has already happened.

 

[csuguy]

Isn't the scripture clear that at some point someone, at least, will be able to count down 1260 days?

No I don't think the scripture is clear that at some point in time you will be able to precisely count down the days. To the contrary, scripture is clear that it will come like a thief in the night; when it is least expected and when people's guard is down. At best, once it is happening you maybe able to recognize that you are in the midst of being robbed.

Is it possible that Jesus didn't know because it was not to be revealed from until much closer to the time? I think "no one will ever know" isn't terribly clear from "only the Father knows".

The intent of scripture is clear that it isn't something that is going to be disclosed before its time. If Jesus, the Son of God, the Lord over all creation, doesn't get to know then why do you think you would get this prized information? If you adhere to the Trinity and believe the Son is a personage of God Almighty himself, then even more so - for that would mean he has hidden the truth even from himself.

I think you are letting your desire to know cloud your judgement about what scripture clearly says on the matter. You are clinging to what you hope are loopholes against the clear testimony of scripture.

It's probably important to make the distinction between lying and being wrong. In order to lie, you have to know what you are saying isn't true.

Even if we assume that they believe their nonsense, what they are doing is akin to eating the forbidden fruit. This is knowledge which God has kept under lock and key - and they are trying to break that lock to acquire that knowledge anyways (as if they could). So whether they are straight out lying or even if they believe what they are selling, there is no good to be found in their work.

Do you consider John Wesley to be a false prophet who manipulated people and stole their money?

While I attended a Nazarene Church throughout High School, I wouldn't say I'm particularly well read on John Wesley. However, if he taught people that such and such was the day/year of the end times then he was at best a fool leading people astray, like Even tempting Adam. At worst he was intentionally leading people astray. I say IF, for, again, I'm not terribly familiar with Wesley's writings or sermons.

I do agree, that if someone says they know He is returning on a date and convinces people to do stupid things to get ready, they are false. But the good thing is that if I think He is returning in a year or one hundred, the way to get ready is the same: love the Lord with all my heart, and love others as myself. Pray, walk out the sermon on the mount. If someone does these things because they feel the return of Jesus is imminent, they will be no worse off if they are wrong and he continues to tarry.

There is great harm even if it is done with the best of intentions. For if people believe the false hood - and it is false whether the person is well meaning or not - then when they find that it is a lie they will stumble in their faith, and may even cease to believe altogether. A temporary boost means little compared to the damage such lies bring. And even people who didn't believe the lies can use these lies against the faith.

I fail to see the strictness you are referring to outside of the tradition of the church.

If by "tradition of the church" you mean the scriptures, then I suppose you maybe right. What do you use as your guide for the truth if not tradition or scripture?

Oh definitely, adding or subtracting is terrible. But surely you don't think were supposed to avoid trying to understand what is written there. There's a difference between adding on and saying what you think the Lord is saying through His Revelation.

Don't treat these people as if they are mere innocent interpreters. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that states when the end days will come. It is, rather, explicitly not stated. Trying to get at the forbidden fruit of knowledge is a sin now just as it was back in the garden.

It seems the plain meaning to me is "it comes like a thief, but not to you because you are watching". I don't think the Church will know at some point because of "secret information", but because they will be watching and will have the Word of God, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, in their hearts.

Yes if you are watching and persist, then that day will not over take you. However, it does not promise that you or the church will suddenly know everything and be able to count down the days. And it definitely doesn't promise we'll know these things before they happen.

 

[DavidK]

No I don't think the scripture is clear that at some point in time you will be able to precisely count down the days. To the contrary, scripture is clear that it will come like a thief in the night; when it is least expected and when people's guard is down. At best, once it is happening you maybe able to recognize that you are in the midst of being robbed.

Ah, I see. So the 1260 days is all part of it, and by the time you can count it it has come like a thief.

The intent of scripture is clear that it isn't something that is going to be disclosed before its time. If Jesus, the Son of God, the Lord over all creation, doesn't get to know then why do you think you would get this prized information? If you adhere to the Trinity and believe the Son is a personage of God Almighty himself, then even more so - for that would mean he has hidden the truth even from himself.

I can tell this is a big deal for you, but you're mixing up time. I'm not saying I will get to know when the Son doesn't. I'm saying He didn't at a point of time when He said that, and no one else knew then as well. For all I know, now that He is sitting at the right hand of the Father, he knows the exact day and hour. I'm saying that I see nothing in scripture that indicates He might reveal that by His Spirit to the Church through His word at any point prior to His return. That takes no pride. In fact, it is humble, because I'm not trying to put a limit on what He will or won't reveal. That's up to Him.

I think you are letting your desire to know cloud your judgement about what scripture clearly says on the matter. You are clinging to what you hope are loopholes against the clear testimony of scripture.

Nah. I don't have a date. I don't expect to until I see the Abomination that Desolates on the Holy Mountain and the two witnesses prophesying in the streets of Jerusalem. At that point I expect to start counting.

But by the signs, it's very close. And it makes no difference that fervent believers have thought that it was close for the last two millennia. It's well they did, as it bore good fruit in their lives. Peter, John, Paul all thought the time was close. Jesus said it was close. And truthfully, that day is no farther than a hundred years at most from any of us, since our time on earth is limited.

Even if we assume that they believe their nonsense, what they are doing is akin to eating the forbidden fruit. This is knowledge which God has kept under lock and key - and they are trying to break that lock to acquire that knowledge anyways (as if they could). So whether they are straight out lying or even if they believe what they are selling, there is no good to be found in their work.

It's the glory of the Lord to conceal a matter, and the glory of kings to search it out. We are supposed to be digging into His Word for wisdom, and Jesus repeatedly warned us to watch for the signs. He didn't tell us "just obey my commands and it'll work out", he said "obey my commands, and watch for the indications that the day is at hand."

If by "tradition of the church" you mean the scriptures, then I suppose you maybe right. What do you use as your guide for the truth if not tradition or scripture?

I don't mean the scripture, I mean tradition. I don't find scripture that says we will never know when He will return. In fact, the evidence of scripture points to there being more and more clarity the closer we get to that day.

It's kind of like the prophecies of His first coming. At the time they were spoken they were opaque. When He came, some understood, but many did not. Now, looking back, many have a great clarity how He fulfilled them. I expect His return to have a lot of similarities to His first coming.

Don't treat these people as if they are mere innocent interpreters. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that states when the end days will come. It is, rather, explicitly not stated. Trying to get at the forbidden fruit of knowledge is a sin now just as it was back in the garden.

Seeking knowledge is not sinful. The sin is in seeking it apart from God. When we seek it in His word and from His Spirit, we are in the right place to learn.

Yes if you are watching and persist, then that day will not over take you. However, it does not promise that you or the church will suddenly know everything and be able to count down the days. And it definitely doesn't promise we'll know these things before they happen.

It's clearly implied that we'll know at least 3 1/2 years before. There's no point in repeatedly giving us that time frame in several different forms if we aren't expected to recognize it's beginning. Whether we can know before that is open. I don't see a promise that we will, but I don't see anything against it either.