Was the fall necessary ?

[beloved57]

The Fall was necessary simply because God created all things for His pleasure Rev 4:11

¹¹ Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And Christs death for sin was for Gods pleasure

Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word pleased chaphets means:

to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with

1. (Qal)
   1. of men
      1. to take pleasure in, delight in
      2. to delight, desire, be pleased to do

Believe it or not, God the Lord took pleasure in the Fall !

 

[beloved57]

It was only God's Elect, the Church of God naturally, that fell in Adam under his federal headship, that were Created in the Image of God, for He was their Head.

However, the non-elect seed of the serpent was in their federal head the devil John. 8:44; Mat. 13:38.

Gen. 3:14-15

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The serpent's seed is separate and distinct from Adam and Eve's, the woman's seed.

Now only after Adam and Eve sinned was the serpent's seed added to Adam's posterity, but still shall they remain forever condemned.

Well said Sister !

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Fall was necessary simply because God created all things for His pleasure Rev 4:11

This is the fall:

Romans 5:12 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

Believe it or not, God the Lord took pleasure in the Fall !

God says He has no pleasure in the fall.

Ezekiel 18:32 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.​

Why are you teaching an abominable heresy?

 

[beloved57]

This is the fall:

Romans 5:12 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

God says He has no pleasure in the fall.

Ezekiel 18:32 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.​

Why are you teaching an abominable heresy?

False comment

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[JudgeRightly]

False comment

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Then rebut it instead of wasting TOL bandwidth.

 

[Cntrysner]

I live in the US and have the right of "free" speech. However, the law says I cannot shout "fire" in a crowded auditorium. I am not "free" to do.

Godly choices as well as ungodly choices exist within legal parameters.

Apart from following God's commands we experience nothing but LAWLESSNESS.

It is the word "free" that messes up your reasoning and prohibits your understanding biblical witness. The word "free" is not biblically taught in regard to willful choices.

You are blind and confused. I can't put my finger on it yet as in how you can overlook meanings and disregard logical processes. You take a simple truth as in man's ability to choose and use God's law to nullify man's free choice. They both truly exist, they don't nullify each other.
If you take away free choice you have to propose some other value of judgement other than God's will to condemn anyone. In order for condemnation to occur a value has to be set. You now have to believe in a unjust God are either hold your self above God and set your own values.

Tell me why you believe God chose you above any other. You have to believe he did and if you do, it is an extreme display of self righteousness. So tell now...why did God choose you??? What value did you display?

There was a choice in the garden called the tree of life and it as you seem to believe was not bound by law (which you use to nullify free choice) as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,but the tree of life was based on a different value and that value was man's ability to freely choose without law in Christ.

 

[bling]

Rom 6:1-2 KJV What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

OK. I am not advocating continuing your sinning after you have been forgiven.

 

[Cntrysner]

Free will and how to claim it:

We can will but what is it worth?

I can say I "will" right now but I could change my mind or die before I fulfilled what I willed. Any will takes time for the will to be true. It doesn't matter what I will until I'm dead. I don't even own what I willed until I accomplished it and no other can claim my will until I am dead and I have to testify by notarized letter under the law before any other can claim it by law.
If you claim my will after I'm dead, I can set stipulations that you have to accomplish or I can pass it own freely without your will taking part and all you have to do is accept it. It now is your choice to accept or not but it is not your will, it was my will.
Our will (because it implies works on our part) has no part in receiving the gifted will of another that we can choose or not because if your will is involved it was not a gift.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

If you want to live by your will, you have to die for it to be true. If you choose to live by the will (testimony) of Christ (notarized by God and written in blood in the hearts of believers) you can live eternally.

 

[Nang]

You are blind and confused. I can't put my finger on it yet as in how you can overlook meanings and disregard logical processes. You take a simple truth as in man's ability to choose and use God's law to nullify man's free choice. They both truly exist, they don't nullify each other.

I do not nullify nor deny mankinds' ability to make choices. I simply believe those choices are not "free."

A "free" will choice would be without any restraint, either from God (Law), or mankinds' nature (corrupt). One cannot deny God has established all kinds of law and order within creation. Man cannot make any choices that oppose any of those laws. Also, Adam's disobedience corrupted the nature of all his offspring, and there is no choice that a sinner can make to offset or reverse this fact.

So to my mind, the teaching of "free" will is a farce. The choices of mankind are not free from limitations, restraints, consequences, or condemnation. And I consider it false teaching to tell sinners otherwise.

If you take away free choice you have to propose some other value of judgement other than God's will to condemn anyone. In order for condemnation to occur a value has to be set.

Yes. Such is the purpose of God's moral Law and Commands. Adam was restricted by such prior to his act of disobedience; thus, God had the moral right to condemn Adam for breaking His Law.

You now have to believe in a unjust God are either hold your self above God and set your own values.

This is exactly what lawless and ungodly persons do. They refuse God's moral values; deny them entirely, and establish their own rules . . usurping the authority of their Maker.

Tell me why you believe God chose you above any other. You have to believe he did and if you do, it is an extreme display of self righteousness.

I do believe I have been shown grace and forgiveness by God, through the provision and righteousness of Jesus Christ, but I have no idea why me. I certainly did not merit his favor; I did not even want or ask for His grace.

So tell now...why did God choose you??? What value did you display?

There was a choice in the garden called the tree of life and it as you seem to believe was not bound by law (which you use to nullify free choice) as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,but the tree of life was based on a different value and that value was man's ability to freely choose without law in Christ.

I made no choice. I was simply changed in mind, heart, and soul and enabled to believe. I am justified by faith . . not choice nor works. I cannot boast.

The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil were not the subject of God's commands to Adam. The Tree of Life was a promise and the Tree of Knowledge was forbidden. The Law and commands established a parameter around Adam's actions, which proved to be against God's warnings and commands, and revealed Adam was responsible and accountable before God to obey for his own good. Adam disobeyed and suffered the condemnation of death as did all his offspring that he represented in the presence of God Almighty.

 

[Nang]

Free will and how to claim it:

We can will but what is it worth?

A person's choices reveal his heart, and his heart reveals his nature and affections.

When a person willfully chooses to obey, love for God in his heart is demonstrated, and Scripture says man only believes and loves God because God first loved that man. I John 4:19

When a person willfully chooses to disobey God, enmity against God and corruption of the heart is demonstrated, and Scripture says that man remains in his unbelief.

A soul either believes God or does not believe God. Adam demonstrated unbelief in God's warnings and commands when he took of the forbidden fruit and his unbelief killed him.

There is no way an unbelieving man can change his ways. Can a leopard change his spots?

Only by the grace and regenerating power of God's loving Spirit, can a man's will be changed to love and obey God unto salvation. John 3:3-21

 

[Cntrysner]

I do not nullify nor deny mankinds' ability to make choices. I simply believe those choices are not "free."

Think about what you just said. Man can choose but nullified because he can? That's nonsensical!

What about Christ?, he gave His life so we can make a free choice.

A "free" will choice would be without any restraint, either from God (Law), or mankinds' nature (corrupt). One cannot deny God has established all kinds of law and order within creation. Man cannot make any choices that oppose any of those laws. Also, Adam's disobedience corrupted the nature of all his offspring, and there is no choice that a sinner can make to offset or reverse this fact.

A sinner of himself can not reverse sin but Christ did when he blotted out the ordinances against us. Why do you want to rob mankind of Christ? We can approach Christ without restraint, that's what God wants us to do. It is not by our will, it is by choice and they are not interchangeable.

So to my mind, the teaching of "free" will is a farce. The choices of mankind are not free from limitations, restraints, consequences, or condemnation. And I consider it false teaching to tell sinners otherwise.

Freewill is but not free choice. You keep blaspheming Christ. Christ paid the debt for man so the gift of eternal life can be free choice.

Man can choose the tree of life with no stipulations (laws or whatever) and because it has to be by gift you can choose it freely and it is God's will not your will. In the garden there was choice for man.

Yes. Such is the purpose of God's moral Law and Commands. Adam was restricted by such prior to his act of disobedience; thus, God had the moral right to condemn Adam for breaking His Law.

Why do you keep harping on morale law? It doesn't matter whether it is written in stone or in your heart as long as it is by God. New age calvinism wants you to think there is a difference but don't by into the nonsense. If you do they will give you an alternative and it won't be God's will.

This is exactly what lawless and ungodly persons do. They refuse God's moral values; deny them entirely, and establish their own rules . . usurping the authority of their Maker.

God's moral values are way over your head. That still doesn't nullify free choice by any stretch of imagination. Now tell me your rules since you imposed rules on others.

I do believe I have been shown grace and forgiveness by God, through the provision and righteousness of Jesus Christ, but I have no idea why me. I certainly did not merit his favor; I did not even want or ask for His grace.

But don't you see that you are condemning others that were in the same boat as you? Then who by the doctrine you have been taught can condemn righteously. Don't you see that you are in essence leaving it up to your instructors to define who. Now question it and see by your own words that you are a condemning others and leaving them with no hope. Why should they seek God? You are a stumbling block to them and to yourself. How can you lead anyone to Christ with your nonsense? Tell me how you can?

I made no choice. I was simply changed in mind, heart, and soul and enabled to believe. I am justified by faith . . not choice nor works. I cannot boast.

How did/can you do anything and claim it? Your confusion I hope is not your own concerning salvation. I point out your use of "I" in your context. Explain how you can use "I".

The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil were not the subject of God's commands to Adam. The Tree of Life was a promise and the Tree of Knowledge was forbidden. The Law and commands established a parameter around Adam's actions, which proved to be against God's warnings and commands, and revealed Adam was responsible and accountable before God to obey for his own good. Adam disobeyed and suffered the condemnation of death as did all his offspring that he represented in the presence of God Almighty.

God said, don't eat of the tree of evil, how is that not a command? There were no stipulations about the tree of life yet the offer is still on the table and you can do nothing for it but choose to receive it without law, morale or otherwise.

 

[Nanja]

The Fall was necessary simply because God created all things for His pleasure Rev 4:11

¹¹ Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And Christs death for sin was for Gods pleasure

Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word pleased chaphets means:

to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with

1. (Qal)
   1. of men
      1. to take pleasure in, delight in
      2. to delight, desire, be pleased to do

Believe it or not, God the Lord took pleasure in the Fall !

I Believe it Brother ! Yes, the Fall was necessary, and God absolutely took great Pleasure in it, and also in His Purpose of Judgment whereby He would be Glorified Rev. 4:11; Is. 53:10, just as it was His Pleasure to Bruise His Son with the horrid death of the Cross.


For the God We serve does all to His Pleasure:

Is. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Which Pleasure also incudes Him being the First Cause of sin, which is a dominion He Created Col. 1:16: Rom. 6:14. And also were Lucifer and Adam Created for His Pleasure, and according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11.

 

[beloved57]

The Fall was necessary as much as it was of the Eternal Purpose, which was purposed in Christ before the creation of the World Eph 3:9-11

⁹ And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

¹⁰ To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

¹¹ According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

There was an mystery from creation, in Christ Jesus, which involved the Salvation of the Gentiles, it was hid in God which created all things by Jesus Christ !

This mystery was even hid to Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve would sin in accordance with this hidden mystery, a Salvation Mystery !581

 

[beloved57]

I Believe it Brother ! Yes, the Fall was necessary, and God absolutely took great Pleasure in it, and also in His Purpose of Judgment whereby He would be Glorified Rev. 4:11; Is. 53:10, just as it was His Pleasure to Bruise His Son with the horrid death of the Cross.


For the God We serve does all to His Pleasure:

Is. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Which Pleasure also incudes Him being the First Cause of sin, which is a dominion He Created Col. 1:16: Rom. 6:14. And also were Lucifer and Adam Created for His Pleasure, and according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11.

Amen to the truth Sister !

 

[Nanja]

Amen to the truth Sister !

Indeed. TY Brother !

 

[genuineoriginal]

A "free" will choice would be without any restraint, either from God (Law), or mankinds' nature (corrupt).

Sounds like you are using your free will to deny the very existence of free will by misdefining it.

 

[Clete]

I do not nullify nor deny mankinds' ability to make choices. I simply believe those choices are not "free."

A "free" will choice would be without any restraint, either from God (Law), or mankinds' nature (corrupt). One cannot deny God has established all kinds of law and order within creation. Man cannot make any choices that oppose any of those laws. Also, Adam's disobedience corrupted the nature of all his offspring, and there is no choice that a sinner can make to offset or reverse this fact.

So to my mind, the teaching of "free" will is a farce. The choices of mankind are not free from limitations, restraints, consequences, or condemnation. And I consider it false teaching to tell sinners otherwise.

Another outstanding example of the Calvinist delusional way of thinking!

Nang did exactly NOTHING to disprove the notion of free will. She set up a straw man!

There is not one single Christian in existence anywhere that believes that our actions are free from consequences! Not one single person anywhere on planet Earth believes that! Armenians don't believe that, Calvinists don't believe that, Catholics, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, Lutherans, Methodists, Hindus, Buddhists, Sunnis, Satanists, Republicans or Democrats - NONE of them believe that! Literally no one believes that one's actions are without consequences!

That just isn't what the word "free" in free will means - period!

NANG KNOWS THIS!!!

She is, therefore, a liar on top of being a blasphemer.


To have a "free" will simply means that you have the ability to choose between two or more real alternatives. If you can do or do otherwise, then you are said to have a "free will".

That's all it means, that's all it's ever meant and every Calvinist you've ever met knows that this is what it means. If they repeat this stupidity that Nang has posted it means that they are either stupid, in which case they heard it and thought it made good sense, or else they are an inentional liar. I'd not dare to guess which of the two is more likely.

 

[Nang]

Think about what you just said. Man can choose but nullified because he can? That's nonsensical!

Man is responsible and accountable to submit his will to the will of God. That is the prime and perfect example Jesus Christ exhibited in His life on earth.

What about Christ?, he gave His life so we can make a free choice.

That is your conclusion, but it is not Scriptural.

We can approach Christ without restraint, that's what God wants us to do. It is not by our will, it is by choice and they are not interchangeable.

Scripture says nothing about sinners "choosing" Christ. Just the opposite. John 6:44

Christ paid the debt for man so the gift of eternal life can be free choice.

Jesus Christ paid the death sentence, so that His elect might be legally pardoned and forgiven their crimes.

Man can choose the tree of life with no stipulations (laws or whatever) and because it has to be by gift you can choose it freely and it is God's will not your will.

Error. God separated mankind from the Tree of Life altogether in Genesis 3:24.

Spiritual life is only regenerated in sinners through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit of Christ.

In the garden there was choice for man.

And the first Adam made the wrong choice . . .

God said, don't eat of the tree of evil, how is that not a command?

Absolutely correct. This is the command Adam did not believe or obey.

There were no stipulations about the tree of life yet the offer is still on the table and you can do nothing for it but choose to receive it without law, morale or otherwise.

There is no offer from God to the Tree of Life. There is only one way of salvation and that is faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Life is found in Him alone. And faith to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ comes by the mercy and will of God alone, to the glory of God alone.

 

[Nang]

Another outstanding example of the Calvinist delusional way of thinking!

Nang did exactly NOTHING to disprove the notion of free will. She set up a straw man!

There is not one single Christian in existence anywhere that believes that our actions are free from consequences! Not one single person anywhere on planet Earth believes that! Armenians don't believe that, Calvinists don't believe that, Catholics, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, Lutherans, Methodists, Hindus, Buddhists, Sunnis, Satanists, Republicans or Democrats - NONE of them believe that! Literally no one believes that one's actions are without consequences!

That just isn't what the word "free" in free will means - period!

NANG KNOWS THIS!!!

She is, therefore, a liar on top of being a blasphemer.


To have a "free" will simply means that you have the ability to choose between two or more real alternatives. If you can do or do otherwise, then you are said to have a "free will".

That's all it means, that's all it's ever meant and every Calvinist you've ever met knows that this is what it means. If they repeat this stupidity that Nang has posted it means that they are either stupid, in which case they heard it and thought it made good sense, or else they are an inentional liar. I'd not dare to guess which of the two is more likely.

Quote me one Scripture that uses the words "choose" or "choice" or "free" that pertain to men willfully finding salvation and eternal life in Jesus Christ.

 

[beloved57]

The fall was necessary in that through it God purposed to demonstrate His rich mercy and His Great Love for the dead in sin Elect Eph 2:4-5

⁴ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

⁵ Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

In fact He created them vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

²³ And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,