Everytime I read words concerning salvation on this forum.. their belief, their free will, their faith, it is always theirs that they speak of and it turns my stomach and makes me cringe how they try to possession salvation through themselves.
All you can do is choose when presented the gospel of Christ because there is none righteous but one and it includes all and it will be that way forever. The more of this true gospel revealed, meaning you believe more of it, condemns more and more to the point of denying yourself in all things and giving all honor and glory to Christ.
You seem to be talking about some magical one-time choice that will forevermore move you from death into life (also known as the Once Saved Always Saved heresy).
It is the belief of (what Christ believed), the will of Christ(his will to endure) and the faith of Christ ( His faith in the Father) that we receive the eternal gift. All of the aforementioned belongs to Him. I don't hear it by testimony whether it be written or spoken but must needs be and if it is not it is missed. There's robbery putting the cart before the horse and if you choose to speak so, get ready to move mountains and be prepared to sink beneath the waves of the righteous One. Many will argue against what I just said but in truth who are they arguing against because all I did in this post is give all to Christ, His will, His endurance, His faith or nothing but everything that can be named.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here, because this part seems to lack clarity in thought.
I hope it is not, but it sounds a bit like the Christians that say to God the Father, "Because Jesus did all the work and died on the cross, you must give me eternal life even though I did nothing at all."
Matthew 25:14-30
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I can't find any verses where God required life for life when a baby is killed in the womb.
The closest I can find for that situation is this verse.
Exodus 21:22 CJB
22 “If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman’s husband and confirmed by judges.
To paraphrase your argument:
"Adam was not free to choose to exercise his will to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
"Because Adam chose to exercise his will to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we are all corrupt."
Please explain how Adam was able to choose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil when Adam was not free to choose to do that very thing.
Deuteronomy 23:23
23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
I can't find any verses where God required life for life when a baby is killed in the womb.
The closest I can find for that situation is this verse.
Exodus 21:22 CJB
22 “If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman’s husband and confirmed by judges.
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. - Exodus 21:22-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:22-25&version=NKJV
The verse does not say "hurt a woman so that the child dies."
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. - Exodus 21:22-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:22-25&version=NKJV
The verse does not say "hurt a woman so that the child dies."
Your translation appears to be faulty, which explains why your conclusion is also faulty.
Exodus 21:22-25 CJB
22 “If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman’s husband and confirmed by judges. 23 But if any harm follows, then you are to give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound and bruise for bruise.
If the only harm to the woman is that the unborn child dies, then the husband can demand a fine for the life of the unborn child.
If the woman herself is harmed by the fight, then the penalty is a life for the woman's life, an eye for the woman's eye, a hand for the woman's hand, a foot for the woman's foot, a burn for the woman's burn, a wound for the woman's wound, and a bruise for the woman's wound.
I agree that it has it's faults, but that is not one of them.
Exodus 21:22-25 CJB
22 “If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman’s husband and confirmed by judges. 23 But if any harm follows, then you are to give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound and bruise for bruise.
If the only harm to the woman is that the unborn child dies, then the husband can demand a fine for the life of the unborn child.
If the woman herself is harmed by the fight, then the penalty is a life for the woman's life, an eye for the woman's eye, a hand for the woman's hand, a foot for the woman's foot, a burn for the woman's burn, a wound for the woman's wound, and a bruise for the woman's wound.
- Lexical: יָצָא
- Transliteration: yatsa
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: yaw-tsaw'
- Definition: to go or come out.
- Origin: A primitive root; to go (causatively, bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proxim..
- Usage: X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart(-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to (and fro), utter.
- Translated as (count):
Spoiler
And went out (63), And came out (32), go out (25), So went out (25), went out (20), and he went out (16), who go (13), came (12), came out (12), And brought out (9), and go out (8), comes (8), and they went out (7), and went (7), bring out (7), has gone out (7), You shall go out (7), and bring out (6), And he brought out (6), brought out (6), brought you (6), come out (6), I brought (6), who went out (6), you go out (6), And brought (5), And He brought me out (5), coming out (5), goes forth (5), going out (5), He brought out (5), shall go (5), shall go forth (5), shall go out (5), will go out (5), and come out (4), and extended (4), And he shall go out (4), brought (4), coming (4), get out (4), Go forth (4), goes out (4), had gone out (4), he shall go out (4), I will go out (4), So they went out (4), went (4), who came out (4), after they had come out (3), and came (3), And departed (3), and he shall carry (3), and I will bring out (3), did go out (3), has come out (3), has gone (3), I brought out (3), let come (3), let go out (3), produces (3), shall come (3), So came out (3), surely (3), that he went out (3), that went out (3), then shall go out (3), to go (3), you came (3), you came out (3), after they came (2), and bring (2), and brings (2), And came forward (2), And followed (2), and He brings (2), And He brought (2), And He shall bring forth (2), and I went out (2), and shall go (2), and shall go forth (2), and shall proceed (2), and take me out (2), And they brought (2), And they brought out (2), And when they go out (2), And when went out (2), and will go forth (2), and Your going out (2), are coming out (2), are going (2), bring (2), brings forth (2), brought us (2), brought you out (2), comes forth (2), comes out (2), do go out (2), flowing (2), go (2), goes (2), goes outside (2), gone out (2), has brought out (2), has gone forth (2), have gone out (2), He brought them out (2), he came out (2), he comes out (2), he goes out (2), he has come out (2), He will bring forth (2), I get out (2), left (2), let come out (2), let me bring out (2), proceed (2), proceeds (2), projecting (2), shall come out (2), shall flow (2), So brought (2), take (2), that brought (2), that goes out (2), that I brought (2), then went out (2), then you shall bring out (2), they come out (2), they go out (2), they have come out (2), they shall come out (2), they shall go out (2), they went out (2), to bring (2), to bring out (2), utter (2), when came out (2), when He brought (2), When went out (2), when you came (2), when you came out (2), when you go out (2), when You went out (2), who brings out (2), who brought (2), who were (2), who will come (2), will come (2), will descend (2), you brought (2), you do go out (2), You have brought (2), you shall go forth (2), you will go out (2), your going out (2), after had come (1), after had come out (1), after had gone (1), after they departed (1), am going out (1), and as they went out (1), And brought forth (1), and brought him (1), and brought me out (1), and brought them out (1), and brought us out (1), and brought us up (1), and brought you out (1), and bypassing (1), and carried (1), and carry (1), and carry out (1), and carry out your belongings (1), and comes out (1), and cost (1), and drew it (1), And exacted (1), and extended to (1), And failed (1), And fell (1), And fell to (1), and get away (1), and get me out (1), and going (1), and has brought out (1), And has come out (1), And has departed (1), And He brought them out (1), and He brought you out (1), And he carried out (1), And He delivers me (1), And he shall depart (1), And he went (1), And he would come out (1), and him (1), And I brought (1), And I will bring (1), And I will bring forth (1), And I will bring them out (1), and I will draw (1), and imported (1), and it shall be released (1), and it went forth (1), And it went out (1), and it will go (1), and lead (1), and let come (1), and let come forth (1), and let go out (1), and let them go forth (1), and let us go out (1), and put (1), and put forth (1), and ran (1), And shall again extend (1), and shall go out (1), and she went (1), and should enjoy (1), And take him out (1), And there shall come forth (1), and therefore I brought (1), And therefore I made them go (1), and they brought him out (1), and they came out (1), and they departed (1), And they gave (1), and they paid it out (1), And they shall go forth (1), and they took (1), And they took him (1), and we will come out (1), and went forward (1), and went out to (1), and went out toward (1), and what has proceeded (1), And when had gone (1), and when he comes out (1), and when he goes out (1), and when he took it out (1), And when he went out (1), And when she has departed (1), And when they brought out (1), and who brings forth (1), and who brought (1), and whoever spreads (1), and will come (1), And will go out (1), and will leave (1), and yet they advance (1), And You have brought (1), and you may go (1), And you shall bring out (1), and you shall go out (1), appeared (1), are coming (1), are going out (1), as do (1), as he came (1), as he goes out (1), as soon as I have gone out (1), as they came (1), as they came out (1), as they went out (1), as was departing (1), as you were coming out (1), at any time (1), at the end (1), at your departure (1), before had gone out (1), breaks out (1), bring her out (1), bring it out (1), bring me (1), bring them out (1), brings him (1), brings them out (1), brought them (1), brought up (1), Bulge (1), but he who goes out (1), but he who goes over (1), But went out (1), but will come (1), but You brought us out (1), by bringing (1), came up (1), can you bring out (1), carry (1), carry out (1), clear out (1), come forth (1), come out you (1), David (1), Departs (1), did come (1), did we ever come up (1), do go (1), does come (1), does go out (1), does go out to battle (1), escaped (1), extending (1), falls (1), fell out (1), fit to go out (1), flow (1), Follow (1), for both going out (1), for bringing them (1), For they will come out (1), for whoever went out (1), Get away (1), had brought (1), had come out (1), had departed (1), had risen (1), had taken (1), has an emission (1), has brought you (1), has come (1), Has revealed (1), have come forth (1), have come out (1), have drawn (1), have go out (1), have gone forth (1), have gone from me (1), have You brought me (1), have you come out (1), He brings (1), he brings forth (1), He brings out (1), He brings them (1), he came (1), he comes (1), He comes forth (1), He gallops (1), he goes (1), he has brought (1), He has brought them out (1), He has brought us (1), He has gone forth (1), he went (1), he went out (1), he went to (1), He will bring me forth (1), He will come out (1), I came (1), I came forth (1), I came out (1), I come out (1), I gave a command (1), I go out (1), I had brought out (1), I had brought them out (1), I have come forth (1), I shall bring (1), I shall come forth (1), I should bring (1), I will bring out (1), I will go (1), I will go away (1), I will have brought (1), I will send out (1), in its going forth (1), in which you came (1), in your going out (1), is coming (1), is coming out (1), is going (1), is gone (1), issued (1), it comes out (1), it shall be released (1), leaped up (1), let bring forth (1), let come here (1), let grow (1), let him be found (1), let one leave (1), let us go forth (1), Make go out (1), may go out (1), may lead them out (1), proceeding (1), Pull me (1), reaches (1), reported (1), scarcely (1), shall be carried (1), shall bring out (1), shall come forth (1), shall go away (1), shall he go out (1), shall pluck (1), shall proceed out (1), she shall go out (1), should we go (1), since I came out (1), so brought us (1), So departed (1), So he brought out (1), So he went out (1), So she brought out (1), so spread (1), so that came out (1), so that prematurely (1), so that they escaped (1), spread out (1), springs out (1), surrendered (1), take her outside (1), take outside (1), that came out (1), that come out (1), that comes (1), that extend (1), that extends (1), that flow out (1), that go out (1), that goes forth (1), that had come out (1), that he may bring forth (1), that he may take (1), that he should take him (1), that I may go out (1), that is going forth (1), that proceeds out (1), that produces (1), that they would put away (1), That went (1), that which goes out (1), that you may bring (1), the bringing you (1), the expedition (1), the one who led out (1), then come out (1), then he shall be released (1), then he shall go (1), then it shall go on (1), then shall be released (1), then she shall go out (1), then they shall bring out (1), then they went out (1), there were who went out (1), Therefore departed (1), therefore he shall go out (1), Therefore she went out (1), therefore they have gone (1), Therefore went out (1), they brought out (1), they depart (1), they do bring out (1), they exported (1), they exported them (1), they had brought (1), they proceed (1), they shall be released (1), they shall bring out (1), they shall surrender (1), they went forth (1), they will go out (1), those who could go out (1), those who go (1), those who had gone out (1), those who were going (1), those who were going off duty (1), thus you shall bring (1), to bring forth (1), to bring them (1), to bring them out (1), to bring up us (1), to carry out (1), to escape (1), to get out (1), to go out (1), to lead them (1), to put away (1), to surrender (1), to take them (1), to the one who went out (1), took them out (1), Utter it (1), vents (1), was coming out (1), was going forward (1), was going out (1), was paid out (1), we bring (1), we departed (1), we will come out (1), were coming (1), when go out (1), when had gone (1), when he comes out (1), when he departed (1), when He went (1), when I bring out (1), when I brought out (1), when I brought them (1), when I came (1), when I came up (1), when I went out (1), when it comes out (1), when it is released (1), when they brought out (1), when they came out (1), when they departed (1), when they had brought (1), when they had come out (1), when they went out (1), when You brought (1), when you have brought (1), whenever went out (1), which comes out (1), which has come up (1), which projects (1), who (1), who are able to go (1), Who brings forth (1), who brought out (1), who brought you (1), who brought you out (1), who came (1), who came from (1), who go off duty (1), who go out (1), who goes out (1), who had brought them (1), who had gone out (1), who led out (1), who went (1), who will be brought out (1), will become known (1), will bring out (1), will come forth (1), will come out (1), will escape (1), will proceed (1), yet they have gone (1), you (1), You brought out (1), You brought us (1), you departed (1), You did go out (1), you do surrender (1), you have brought out (1), you have come (1), you shall bring out (1), you shall carry (1), You shall carry out to (1), you shall go (1), you surrender (1), you take out (1), You went forth (1), you went out (1), you will go forth (1).
And:
Strong's h3206
- Lexical: יֶלֶד
- Transliteration: yeled
- Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
- Phonetic Spelling: yeh'-led
- Definition: child, son, boy, youth.
- Origin: From yalad; something born, i.e. A lad or offspring.
- Usage: boy, child, fruit, son, young man (one).
- Translated as (count):
Spoiler
the child (25), children (6), the young men (6), the sons (5), of the child (3), of the young men (3), the boy (3), a Child (2), and her children (2), and the sons (2), and their children (2), the male children (2), a boy (1), a youth (1), against the boy (1), and a child (1), And as for young men (1), and children (1), and Even a young man (1), and with the sons (1), her sons (1), his children (1), his sons (1), its young ones (1), my children (1), my sons (1), of boys (1), of child (1), of children (1), of the boy (1), she gives birth (1), the youth (1), the youths (1), their children (1), their own children (1), their young (1), their young ones (1), with her children (1), with the child (1), young men (1).
The NKJV is correct to use "give birth prematurely."
It's a fetal homicide law. The world's first, in fact.
If the only harm to the woman is that the unborn child dies, then the husband can demand a fine for the life of the unborn child.
If the woman herself is harmed by the fight, then the penalty is a life for the woman's life, an eye for the woman's eye, a hand for the woman's hand, a foot for the woman's foot, a burn for the woman's burn, a wound for the woman's wound, and a bruise for the woman's wound.
The circumstance is that a crime was committed that caused the baby to be born prematurely.
The husband of the woman demands what he thinks is a just punishment (not a fine, that's something we have today that was not part of the system they had), and the judges will enforce compensation.
The criminal was already going to be punished for whatever crime he was in the process of committing when he caused the premature birth. The compensation (the payment that goes to the husband of the woman, not the government) is added BECAUSE of the premature birth.
Yes, Adam chose to disobey, but not freely. God had placed restraint upon Adam through his commands, and added suffrage of consequent penalty when he did disobey.
The definition of "free" should really be studied, if persons are going to continue linking the concept to human willfulness and actions.
Men are not free to act just any way they want. They are created responsible and accountable to God Almighty for their actions.
Deuteronomy 23:23
23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
The mention of a freewill offering is not relevent to discussion of human choices of disobedience or obedience to God.
A freewill offering simply spoke of a voluntary offering made by men & women according to voluntary human vows and promises made voluntarily before God . . versus willful choices that are restrained and/or instigated because of God's commands, vows, and promises.
The Fall was necessary because God purposed it in His infinite wisdom that it should be, as His Understanding is infinite, so likewise His wisdom Ps 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
He created the world by wisdom and therefore Adam and the fall he would he bring about.Jer 51:15
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Ps 104:24
O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
Prov 3:19
The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
And God doesn't find wisdom outside of Himself, that would mean someone or something outside of God taught Him Wisdom. So the fall was a contrivance of the unsearchable wisdom of God !567
The Fall of mankind that was originally in Adam [God's Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23], who being the Federal Head of all God's Elect originally, are the same ones which were Chosen of God In Union with Christ Eph. 1:4, Who is Wisdom [as spoken of in Ps.147:5; Jer. 51:15; 104:24; Prov. 3:19, and also in Ps. 136:5], to be Holy and without blame before God in Love, which they were predestinated to Eph. 1:4-5.
John 1:3 All things were made by him [Wisdom]; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The Creation of the World was according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ [Wisdom] Eph. 3:8-11, that is, a Redemptive Purpose; whereby in the Mind and Purpose of God, His Elect in Adam were already Saved from sin by Christ the Lamb before the foundation Rev. 13:8b !
1 Cor. 1:24, 30
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
It appears that you object to the definition of free-will that you think is the real one.
My typical definition of free-will is the ability to choose to obey God or to disobey God, and includes the ability to choose how you are going to obey God or how you are going to disobey God. It also includes the ability to make decisions (choices) about a course of action that has no apparent link to obeying or disobeying God.
The mention of a freewill offering is not relevent to discussion of human choices of disobedience or obedience to God.
A freewill offering simply spoke of a voluntary offering made by men & women according to voluntary human vows and promises made voluntarily before God
Yes, the ability to make choices that do not depend on obedience or disobedience to God is an important distinction.
I will need to modify the definition of free-will to include that.
All willful choices made by man are made from free-will.
The Bible has a handful of stories about choices that may have been influenced heavily enough by God to make people wonder whether those choices were really made from free-will, but those are special cases and cannot be used to represent the majority.
The Fall of mankind that were originally in Adam [God's Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23], who being the Federal Head of all God's Elect originally, are the same ones which were Chosen of God In Union with Christ Eph. 1:4, Who is Wisdom [as spoken of in Ps.147:5; Jer. 51:15; 104:24; Prov. 3:19, and also in Ps. 136:5], to be Holy and without blame before God in Love, which they were predestinated to Eph. 1:4-5.
The area of disagreement between you, Beloved, and myself, is that I believe Adam was appointed by God to be Federal Head of the entire human race, and not just the Elect.
Exemplified by Paul in I Corinthians 15:45-58
All men are created in God's image, and thus are responsible and accountable for their choices, action, and subsequent bondage to unbelief.
Total Depravity cannot be properly taught without acknowledging that Adam was the original source and cause of all human sin, death, hell, and human enslavement to the mastery of the devil.
This is confirmed not only in Scripture but also within the historical Christian Creeds & confessions that have passed down through the N.T. era since the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The area of disagreement between you, Beloved, and myself, is that I believe Adam was appointed by God to be Federal Head of the entire human race, and not just the Elect.
Exemplified by Paul in I Corinthians 15:45-58
All men are created in God's image, and thus are responsible and accountable for their choices, action, and subsequent bondage to unbelief.
Total Depravity cannot be properly taught without acknowledging that Adam was the original source and cause of all human sin, death, hell, and human enslavement to the mastery of the devil.
This is confirmed not only in Scripture but also within the historical Christian Creeds & confessions that have passed down through the N.T. era since the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It was only God's Elect, the Church of God naturally, that fell in Adam under his federal headship, that were Created in the Image of God, for He was their Head.
However, the non-elect seed of the serpent was in their federal head the devil John. 8:44; Mat. 13:38.
Gen. 3:14-15
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The serpent's seed is separate and distinct from Adam and Eve's, the woman's seed.
Now only after Adam and Eve sinned was the serpent's seed added to Adam's posterity, but still shall they remain forever condemned.
You're saying that you disagree b57 whole premise in this thread, that the fall was not necessary and that youwith this...
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
But Adam was never "free" to disobey God. Bringing death upon oneself or others is not a right or a freedom . . it is criminal sin.
The word "free" in the context of the freedom of the will simply means having the ability to do or to do otherwise. It means that there are real alternatives from which a person is able to choose of his own volition. It does not imply a lack of consequences to one's choices and never has. That little didbit of stupidity is something Calvinists add to the meaning of the word in order to give themselves a straw man that they can knock down in view of their mindless followers who warm the pews on Sunday and believe whatever anyone standing behind a pulpit happens to say.
I mean both. Life is only found through faith and trust in Jesus Christ which manifests in obedience to His commands.
You can't mean both. It's contradictory. Which human being does not perform the will of God according to your precious Calvinism which you claim is the very gospel itself?
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
Notice also the altering of the word "life" into "eternal life", not to mention the legalism.
