Was Jesus real?

Spectrox War

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The spirit of truth is the conviction of truth for spirit born believers.
Can you explain what you mean here? Truth is simply that which comports with reality.

I have no proof of the resurrected Jesus that would satisfy a dedicated skeptic.
I'm not being skeptical for the sake of it. It's good to test beliefs with critical thinking. If they survive the test I can be more confident in the belief.


Even the apostles doubted.
I have spoken to OSASers on this site and one in particular claims that if you doubt God, then you cannot trust God and therefore cannot be a true Christian (since trust in God is supposedly necessary for salvation). Were the apostles not Christians?

I'm a disciple of the original gospel of Jesus, Christianity is an overly complicated shadow of the original gospel. Everything began to change as soon as Jesus left for his headquarter planet.
What is the original gospel? Mark? The writings of Paul? Why were they written down decades after Jesus allegedly walked the earth by people who never physically met Jesus? Doesn't this strike you as a bit odd?

What planet did Jesus head for?

So you claim the apostles didn't exist either? It's like one long conspiracy theory.

I'm not making a positive claim that the apostles did not exist. I'm simply saying there is insufficient reliable evidence to accept the claim that they did exist so it's not really worth believing at the present time. No conspiracy is necessary.
 

patrick jane

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Can you explain what you mean here? Truth is simply that which comports with reality.

I'm not being skeptical for the sake of it. It's good to test beliefs with critical thinking. If they survive the test I can be more confident in the belief.



I have spoken to OSASers on this site and one in particular claims that if you doubt God, then you cannot trust God and therefore cannot be a true Christian (since trust in God is supposedly necessary for salvation). Were the apostles not Christians?


What is the original gospel? Mark? The writings of Paul? Why were they written down decades after Jesus allegedly walked the earth by people who never physically met Jesus? Doesn't this strike you as a bit odd?

What planet did Jesus head for?



I'm not making a positive claim that the apostles did not exist. I'm simply saying there is insufficient reliable evidence to accept the claim that they did exist so it's not really worth believing at the present time. No conspiracy is necessary.

i tried to be agnostic for a minute, it didn't take. i went back to the Bible again knowing Jesus Christ is Our lord and Savior; Son of God. i found i enjoyed the KJV and understood finally. i was on the wrong path for decades but seemingly doing fine

once i decided i would read it all again myself i understood better. i know nothing and praise God for any morsels of truth i retain, yet it was totally different than i expected. i opened the bible many times but it didn't interest me. The Bible has never been proven wrong in any one thing for certain. that's a pretty good statistic

i started reading Romans and understanding all Paul's epistles, then the M,M,L,J, the entire NT, and the OT became much more comprehensible.
I'm not tryin' to preach to you as i don't know you. God Bless you and welcome to know you -
 

Caino

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Can you explain what you mean here? Truth is simply that which comports with reality.

Spiritual truth is a living reality on it's own, it must be experienced to be known.

I'm not being skeptical for the sake of it. It's good to test beliefs with critical thinking. If they survive the test I can be more confident in the belief.


"Intellectual deficiency or educational poverty unavoidably handicaps higher religious attainment because such an impoverished environment of the spiritual nature robs religion of its chief channel of philosophic contact with the world of scientific knowledge. The intellectual factors of religion are important, but their overdevelopment is likewise sometimes very handicapping and embarrassing. Religion must continually labor under a paradoxical necessity: the necessity of making effective use of thought while at the same time discounting the spiritual serviceableness of all thinking."​



I have spoken to OSASers on this site and one in particular claims that if you doubt God, then you cannot trust God and therefore cannot be a true Christian (since trust in God is supposedly necessary for salvation). Were the apostles not Christians?

We all have doubts, it's when doubt becomes a doctrine itself that we are sealed from learning. The apostles were believers, Christianity didn't start until Paul came along and built a new religion.


What is the original gospel? Mark? The writings of Paul? Why were they written down decades after Jesus allegedly walked the earth by people who never physically met Jesus? Doesn't this strike you as a bit odd?

The original gospel would be the one Jesus tried to impart to the Jews, had they accepted it the Gospel of The Kingdom of Hevene would be preached from Jerusalem today but we know what happened. After Jesus left the gospel changed, it became about Jesus, it became about the death and resurrection, Paul's own ideas from the Roman world.

What planet did Jesus head for?

Salvington



I'm not making a positive claim that the apostles did not exist. I'm simply saying there is insufficient reliable evidence to accept the claim that they did exist so it's not really worth believing at the present time. No conspiracy is necessary.

Johns grave, Peters bones, stuff like that.
 

Caino

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The chart is quite nice and impressive, but there is no real consensus on when the Exodus took place. Archaeological evidence points towards the 13th or 12th centuries, while a literal interpretation of the Bible points towards the 15th century.

Here is a review of this topic.

Yoiu may find this information aboiut Joshua's altar of interest as well:
http://ebal.haifa.ac.il/ebal06.html

Ok, no consensus, that's fine, you asked where my thinking came from.
 

Spectrox War

New member
Spiritual truth is a living reality on it's own, it must be experienced to be known.

I used to be a Christian and I believed I experienced the God of the Bible. I now believe that I was mistaken.


"Intellectual deficiency or educational poverty unavoidably handicaps higher religious attainment because such an impoverished environment of the spiritual nature robs religion of its chief channel of philosophic contact with the world of scientific knowledge. The intellectual factors of religion are important, but their overdevelopment is likewise sometimes very handicapping and embarrassing. Religion must continually labor under a paradoxical necessity: the necessity of making effective use of thought while at the same time discounting the spiritual serviceableness of all thinking."​

Where is this quote from? Not sure it answers my question.


We all have doubts, it's when doubt becomes a doctrine itself that we are sealed from learning. The apostles were believers, Christianity didn't start until Paul came along and built a new religion.

Try to convince an OSASer of that. I wish you Christians would sing from the same hymn sheet. Unbelievers don't know what they should believe on important points of doctine, i.e. what's the exact mechanism for salvation.

The original gospel would be the one Jesus tried to impart to the Jews, had they accepted it the Gospel of The Kingdom of Hevene would be preached from Jerusalem today but we know what happened. After Jesus left the gospel changed, it became about Jesus, it became about the death and resurrection, Paul's own ideas from the Roman world.

How do you know there was an original gospel that predated Paul or Mark?

Salvington

Have you just made that up?


Johns grave, Peters bones, stuff like that.

Archaeological citations needed please.
 

Spectrox War

New member
i tried to be agnostic for a minute, it didn't take. i went back to the Bible again knowing Jesus Christ is Our lord and Savior; Son of God. i found i enjoyed the KJV and understood finally. i was on the wrong path for decades but seemingly doing fine

once i decided i would read it all again myself i understood better. i know nothing and praise God for any morsels of truth i retain, yet it was totally different than i expected. i opened the bible many times but it didn't interest me. The Bible has never been proven wrong in any one thing for certain. that's a pretty good statistic

i started reading Romans and understanding all Paul's epistles, then the M,M,L,J, the entire NT, and the OT became much more comprehensible.
I'm not tryin' to preach to you as i don't know you. God Bless you and welcome to know you -

I accept your good wishes in the spirit they are given.

Agnosticism is the most philosophically defensible position IMO. How can we really KNOW much at all about the big questions?

I think it unlikely I will ever become a Christian again. I know the Bible's flaws. Issues such as:
a) How the Bible was put together and when.
b) The lack of evidence for a historical Jesus.
c) Inconsistencies in the Bible or occasionally outright contradictions.
d) Biblical violations of Scientific Laws and Theories, e.g. the miracles, evolution versus the creation story, etc.
e) Slavery and genocide in the Bible are supported by the God of the Bible and there is no context in which they can ever be moral
 

Caino

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I used to be a Christian and I believed I experienced the God of the Bible. I now believe that I was mistaken.

That's not unusual, Judas lived with God for three years and still succumb to ultra individualism.



Where is this quote from? Not sure it answers my question.

The Urantia Book




Try to convince an OSASer of that. I wish you Christians would sing from the same hymn sheet. Unbelievers don't know what they should believe on important points of doctine, i.e. what's the exact mechanism for salvation.

Find God for yourself, Christianity is a house divided and a mere shadow of the original gospel.


How do you know there was an original gospel that predated Paul or Mark?

Did you think Jesus went around teaching "Christ and him crucified?"



Have you just made that up?

No, the name of the headquarters world where Christ Michael resided is in the UB.




Archaeological citations needed please.
We have the graves and at least the bones of Peter.
 

Spectrox War

New member
That's not unusual, Judas lived with God for three years and still succumb to ultra individualism.
Who knows what Judas' motivation was or whether or not he existed? I have to assume he did not exist because there are 2 contradictory accounts of his death in Matthew 27 and Acts 1.
The Urantia Book
So God wrote 2 books?
Find God for yourself, Christianity is a house divided and a mere shadow of the original gospel.
There may be nothing there to find, like The Emperor's New Clothes. I honestly sought God over 15 years ago and ended up an agnostic atheist / ignostic.
Did you think Jesus went around teaching "Christ and him crucified?"
What? I have no idea what you mean here.
No, the name of the headquarters world where Christ Michael resided is in the UB.
Why should I believe in the UB? Give me your best reason.
We have the graves and at least the bones of Peter.
Is not an archaeological citation.
 

RevTestament

New member
I accept your good wishes in the spirit they are given.

Agnosticism is the most philosophically defensible position IMO. How can we really KNOW much at all about the big questions?

I think it unlikely I will ever become a Christian again. I know the Bible's flaws.
Maybe its flaws are really a strength?
Issues such as:
a) How the Bible was put together and when.
I would much rather it be put together my dozens and even hundreds of men rather than one like the Qur'an or the UB. How can so many men write something which is so internally coherent and consistent? Once one understands how it all fits together, I pose it attests of God, rather than being a flaw.
b) The lack of evidence for a historical Jesus.
Lack of evidence for a historical Buddha, or many other such figures. Often all we have is a few peoples words for it. With the Bible there are dozens and even hundreds to attest to God. What historical evidence is there for "God?" I pose none except for the words of His prophets, and all their prophecies which have come true.
As the revelation of the Father to us, there is much more historical evidence for Jesus that there is for "God."
c) Inconsistencies in the Bible or occasionally outright contradictions.
Some of these pop up with any written history due to the nature of language - esp when several different languages are involved.
d) Biblical violations of Scientific Laws and Theories, e.g. the miracles, evolution versus the creation story, etc.
What men "see" is not necessarily what happens scientifically.
e) Slavery and genocide in the Bible are supported by the God of the Bible and there is no context in which they can ever be moral
Approved "slavery" in the Bible is more like a period of mandatory employment or an indentured servant. The servant wasn't the property of the owner although his/her services could be sold. All the laws pertaining to people still applied to the servant - adultery still applied, murder, etc. The master did not have the right to do whatever, he wanted.
 

Spectrox War

New member
Maybe its flaws are really a strength?
Or maybe it's flaws are just that. Flaws. Created by flawed Iron Age men who wrote the thing.
I would much rather it be put together my dozens and even hundreds of men rather than one like the Qur'an or the UB. How can so many men write something which is so internally coherent and consistent? Once one understands how it all fits together, I pose it attests of God, rather than being a flaw.
I would much rather God stopped playing Hide & Seek and actually demonstrated his own existence. Think of the massive increase in the chance of saving souls if everyone already knew God existed. Btw this would not impact on free will Biblically-speaking. Satan and the fallen angels apparently knew of God's existence but had no trouble defecting to the other side.

Lack of evidence for a historical Buddha, or many other such figures. Often all we have is a few peoples words for it. With the Bible there are dozens and even hundreds to attest to God. What historical evidence is there for "God?" I pose none except for the words of His prophets, and all their prophecies which have come true.
As the revelation of the Father to us, there is much more historical evidence for Jesus that there is for "God."
For prophecies to be valid, they need to be specific and have predictive capability that has been demonstrated. None of this is true for The Bible and its ambiguous prophecy claims.

Some of these pop up with any written history due to the nature of language - esp when several different languages are involved.
The Skeptics Annotated Bible has identified 472 Biblical Inconsistencies. 472. Some can be easily explained away. Many are more difficult. There are less inconsistencies in the average children's book.

What men "see" is not necessarily what happens scientifically.
So did Jesus defy gravity and walk on water or not? Did he feed thousands of starving people with a loaf and two fishes or not?

Approved "slavery" in the Bible is more like a period of mandatory employment or an indentured servant. The servant wasn't the property of the owner although his/her services could be sold. All the laws pertaining to people still applied to the servant - adultery still applied, murder, etc. The master did not have the right to do whatever, he wanted.

Exodus 21:20 contradicts you:

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

Look at how badly you can beat your slave and not face criminal charges. Are you sure you want to defend this statement?
 

RevTestament

New member
Or maybe it's flaws are just that. Flaws. Created by flawed Iron Age men who wrote the thing.
Like what?
There are a few flaws. The Masoretic text is missing at least one verse. There are apparently some scrivener's errors in a few books, but none of these that I know of affect a prophecy or applicable law.

I would much rather God stopped playing Hide & Seek and actually demonstrated his own existence. Think of the massive increase in the chance of saving souls if everyone already knew God existed. Btw this would not impact on free will Biblically-speaking. Satan and the fallen angels apparently knew of God's existence but had no trouble defecting to the other side.
If I may, I feel like this is the heart of your beef with "God" or the scriptures. I posit this is just the way God does things, and rather than getting frustrated with it, it would be worth it to ask why.

Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

Orthodoxy spends all kinds of energy to say no, when the scriptures repeatedly say yes.
As for your proposition that there would be a "massive increase" in saving souls if God did things differently, I would say no. I believe you will be saved, and indeed ultimately most everyone on this earth will be saved - that is the purpose of Christ.

For prophecies to be valid, they need to be specific and have predictive capability that has been demonstrated. None of this is true for The Bible and its ambiguous prophecy claims.
I believe Daniel 9 was quite specifically fulfilled. I believe Daniel 11 has been fulfilled. Prophecies concerning the destruction of Babylon and Tyre were fulfilled. There are numerous others.

The Skeptics Annotated Bible has identified 472 Biblical Inconsistencies. 472. Some can be easily explained away. Many are more difficult. There are less inconsistencies in the average children's book.
Well, of course. They use simple language. I believe what sometimes seem like inconsistencies are actually purposeful in order to split up the complete picture, and what seem to be inconsistencies can just be put together to complete the picture.
So did Jesus defy gravity and walk on water or not? Did he feed thousands of starving people with a loaf and two fishes or not?
What you pose breaks the "laws" of physics is not necessarily so. Perhaps our understanding of physics is just limited. Jesus also walked through a solid wall. Perhaps God is able to dispel mass into the surrounding environs - I really do not know.


Exodus 21:20 contradicts you:

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

Look at how badly you can beat your slave and not face criminal charges. Are you sure you want to defend this statement?
Yes, just a few verses down if the master put out an eye or caused the loss of a tooth, he had to let the servant go. As I tried to show, the law treated the servant's services as the property - it is what got sold.
 

Spectrox War

New member
Like what?
There are a few flaws. The Masoretic text is missing at least one verse. There are apparently some scrivener's errors in a few books, but none of these that I know of affect a prophecy or applicable law.
Flaws - as in contradictions, inaccurate information or things morally wrong. A quick visit to Skeptics Annotated Bible reveals how poor some of The Bible is.

If I may, I feel like this is the heart of your beef with "God" or the scriptures. I posit this is just the way God does things, and rather than getting frustrated with it, it would be worth it to ask why.
I have. And I can find no sensible answer.

Orthodoxy spends all kinds of energy to say no, when the scriptures repeatedly say yes.
As for your proposition that there would be a "massive increase" in saving souls if God did things differently, I would say no. I believe you will be saved, and indeed ultimately most everyone on this earth will be saved - that is the purpose of Christ.
Why do you believe I am saved when Jesus allegedly said "No one comes to the Father except through me."? There are some Christians I have spoken to who say that faith in Christ is the only thing that guarantees salvation and that many atheists and agnostics are saved. But The Bible reads harsher than that.

I believe Daniel 9 was quite specifically fulfilled. I believe Daniel 11 has been fulfilled. Prophecies concerning the destruction of Babylon and Tyre were fulfilled. There are numerous others.
How is it specific? How does it demonstrate predictive capability? Don't you think that the NT writers might have read Daniel before they wrote their "fulfillment."

Well, of course. They use simple language. I believe what sometimes seem like inconsistencies are actually purposeful in order to split up the complete picture, and what seem to be inconsistencies can just be put together to complete the picture.
The death of Judas and the events surrounding the resurrection make no sense to me when put together.

What you pose breaks the "laws" of physics is not necessarily so. Perhaps our understanding of physics is just limited. Jesus also walked through a solid wall. Perhaps God is able to dispel mass into the surrounding environs - I really do not know.
Thank you for an honest "I don't know."

Yes, just a few verses down if the master put out an eye or caused the loss of a tooth, he had to let the servant go. As I tried to show, the law treated the servant's services as the property - it is what got sold.
No. The verse clearly says that the slave is their property. Not the service provided. The verse also implies that the slave could die on Day 3 after the beating and the master would not get into trouble. Is such an expression of law acceptable today? Please think again.

And don't even get me started on God-condoned genocide.
 

RevTestament

New member
Flaws - as in contradictions, inaccurate information or things morally wrong. A quick visit to Skeptics Annotated Bible reveals how poor some of The Bible is.
You still have not given and example of what you think is so "poor." I have already said it has some mistakes. What do you feel is a mistake that negatively affects our ability to live a law or understand a prophecy?
I have. And I can find no sensible answer.
I gave you one. God is looking for a godly seed.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
&
"to this man will I look: he that is poor, contrite, and trembleth at my word."
Why do you believe I am saved when Jesus allegedly said "No one comes to the Father except through me."? There are some Christians I have spoken to who say that faith in Christ is the only thing that guarantees salvation and that many atheists and agnostics are saved. But The Bible reads harsher than that.
I didn't say you are saved. I said I believe you will be saved. Perhaps I am wrong, and you will throw up your hands, and decide to go murder someone tomorrow. But otherwise I believe Christ will save you. This may be at the judgment day when you feel His presence, and realize you were wrong. Of course that will be kinda late, so I would expect a huge reward...

How is it specific? How does it demonstrate predictive capability? Don't you think that the NT writers might have read Daniel before they wrote their "fulfillment."
I don't think they wrote of any fulfillment of Daniels prophecies. Indeed, I think Revelation continues the prophecies of Daniel 7, and many others. But lets take Daniel 9 for example:


Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah [Anointed one] the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall even in troublous times. And after threescore (60) and two weeks shall Messiah be cutoff, but not for himself: and the people of the prince [Rome] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [Titus destroyed the temple]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood [again a flood being the workings of Satan in men], and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week [3 1/2 days or years] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation [the END], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [The last sentence has also been interpreted as: "and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." Oxford Annotated Bible] Daniel 9:24-7.

I will start by saying Rome is the abomination which maketh desolate. The Roman Church is the Great Harlot and Mother of Abominations of the Earth. At the decreed end the desolator will receive the judgments of Revelation 18. Now let us determine when the 70 weeks start. After Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, the Hebrews returned to Jerusalem in two main migrations, but Daniel stayed in the capitol of the Persians. The first migration under Zerubbabel had commission to rebuild the Temple [known as the Temple of Zerubbabel]. The commission came through king Cyrus of Persia in his first year to build an house at Jerusalem to the LORD God. Cyrus the king brought the vessels of gold and silver king Nebuchadnezzar had taken, and gave them to Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah (Zerubbabel), to be taken to Jerusalem. Ezra 1. Zerubbabel led forth the families listed in Ezra 2 to Judah. By the seventh month the people were in their cities, and gathered in Jerusalem where Zerubbabel directed them first in building an altar. Then according to the grant of Cyrus king of Persia, they began collecting wood and materials to rebuild the Temple. Ezra 3. Apparently the rebuilding effort stopped or slowed during the eight year reign of Cambyses. In the sixth month of the second year of Darius the spirit of the LORD was stirred in Zerubbabel through the words of Haggai, to finish the Temple. Apparently, by this time Zerubbabel was recognized as governor of Judah. Haggai 1. The Temple was finished under Darius, king of Persia (who renewed the decree of Cyrus or possibly Darius II), on the third day of the month Adar in the sixth year of Darius. Ezra 6. The second migration returned under Ezra, the scribe, who left Babylon the first day of the first month in the seventh year of king Artaxerxes, who ruled after Darius I, and therefore after Daniel's account. Ezra 7:7-9. They were commissioned by the LORD and king Artaxerxes to beautify the Temple by a letter found in Ezra 7.

However, in the twentieth year of king Artaxerxes, Nehemiah learned of the troublous times of his people: "The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire." Nehemiah 1:1-3. King Artaxerxes saw his troubled countenance, and Nehemiah told him it was because Jerusalem lay waste, and the gates lay burnt. So the king prepared a letter to the keeper of his forest to cut timber for the rebuilding, and sent Nehemiah to Jerusalem. Nehemiah 2:1-8. When he arrived, he found the city in a state of waste. He told the people what God had put in his heart to do, and called the people to rebuild. Nehemiah 2:17-8. But these were troublous times. When the Arabians, the Ammonites, the Ashdodites, and Tobiah, and Sanballat heard of the rebuilding, they came to fight against Jerusalem, so Nehemiah "...set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows." Nehemiah 4:7,8,13. "So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days." Nehemiah 6:15. "Now the city was large and great: but the people were few therein, and the houses were not builded." Nehemiah 7:4.

Cyrus II (the Great) reigned from 549-530 B.C.; Cambyses II from 530-522 B.C.; Darius from 522-486 B.C.; and Xerxes from 486-465 B.C. The commandment to rebuild the walls and the city was to Nehemiah in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes. Artaxerxes I ruled from 465 B.C. to 424 B.C.[1] His twentieth year was 445 B.C. This is about when Old Testament prophecy stopped. This is the beginning of the seventy weeks, which commence with seven weeks (7 x 7 = 49 days/years) to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (when the walls are rebuilt) unto the Messiah, which brings us to 396 B.C. After the second period of threescore and two weeks the Messiah is cut off. Sixty two weeks equals 434 days or prophetic years, which brings us to 38 Anno Domini (according to Roman dating). After His ascension our Lord continued to periodically speak to His apostles, and personally called Paul as a disciple. He then was cut off for awhile, and the Holy Spirit did His work. So the third and last period of the seventy weeks is not consecutive. "Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that is was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." Zechariah 11:9-14.

The third period is a period of only one week (7 years) when he shall confirm the covenant with many. This is a prophecy of the seven year Jewish war beginning under the reign of Nero. One might say He began to confirm the covenant in Rome in the autumn of 63 A.D. or 64 A.D., when many Christians were called to confirm their covenants with our Lord, and were sacrificed under Nero who chose to blame the Christians for the great fire in Rome. A tradition places the sacrifice of Peter in 67 A.D., rather than 64 A.D. However, this prophecy was directed specifically to the Jews, some of whom had accepted Jesus Christ (Acts 11,12). In the Holy Land the Jewish war did not start until approximately August 15, 66 A.D., when Antonia was attacked, although some argue that it began with the unrest in Jerusalem and its surroundings in approximately May, 66. For the dates concerning the Jewish war I rely on the history of Josephus, the Jewish historian to the Romans. His history uses Macedonian (Greek) names for the months of the year which seem to correspond best with an accurate date if imposed upon the Roman months of the year. If, alternatively the Macedonian name is imposed on the Tyrian system or on the luni-solar calender, the date may vary up to one half month from the date I use herein (Roman). In the spring of the 13th year of Nero, 67 A.D., Vespasian, who is the seventh crown of the great red dragon, was sent to subdue the Hebrews. He began by taking cities and fortresses in Galilee: Jotapata, Japha, Garizim, Tarichaeae, and Gamala. After the death of Nero, Vespasian left his invasion of Judaea in 69 A.D., and returned to defeat Vitellius and become emperor. He then sent his son, Titus.

In the midst of the week, that is in the fourth or middle year, He causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The fourth year of the war would be August 15, 69 A.D., to August 14, 70 A.D. According to Josephus, Titus took the outer wall of Jerusalem on May 7, 70. The Temple sacrifice ceased on 17 Panemus, which would correspond with July 17, 70 A.D. Titus burned the Temple on August 10 (10 Lous), 70 A.D. Then the prophesied desolation began. On September 8 (8 Gorpaeus), 70 A.D., Titus took the upper city of Jerusalem. According to Tacitus 600,000 Jews perished. According to Josephus the Romans killed 1,197,000 Jews in the siege and the aftermath of revolts. About 97,000 captives were sold as slaves, or died as unwilling gladiators in the Roman games. The city walls were destroyed. The Jewish War continued until the fall of Masada in 73 A.D. [2] So the Hebrews had till 73 A.D., to accept their Messiah. Major revelations stopped, and the canonical books of the New Testament were set. Continuing revelation was through the Holy Spirit which revealed the truthfulness of the gospel to those who earnestly sought. He knowing the Hebrews would not accept their Messiah, has fulfilled His promise to give His light unto the Gentiles in the latter days. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Luke 13:34-5.

Ok, I would say that demostrates a predictive ability very well. Once one understands that God sometimes used a day for a year, the prophecy is easy to understand.

The death of Judas and the events surrounding the resurrection make no sense to me when put together.
What is contradictory to you about it?
Judas felt so guilty that he committed suicide. He represents the guilt of those who turn on Christ - and the danger to their soul.
Thank you for an honest "I don't know."
sure. I'm prone to admitting when I don't know.
But it is hard for some who like being right too much.

No. The verse clearly says that the slave is their property. Not the service provided. The verse also implies that the slave could die on Day 3 after the beating and the master would not get into trouble. Is such an expression of law acceptable today? Please think again.
Nope. They are not the property of the master, like other property. They have rights, and the other laws apply to them. If they were mere chattel, their servitude wouldn't end. If the "owner" wants to sell them, they don't get a fresh period of servitude, but the new owner is buying the remainder of the service period. So again they are really buying the service and not the person.
And don't even get me started on God-condoned genocide.
What seems evil to you is that God seems to breaking His own laws. But God knows their hearts, and we don't. You also assume that God is sending them to hell or something without a chance of trial. I think they get their trial, and another chance at it most likely on the new earth God will make.
 

Spectrox War

New member
You still have not given and example of what you think is so "poor." I have already said it has some mistakes. What do you feel is a mistake that negatively affects our ability to live a law or understand a prophecy?
I gave you one. God is looking for a godly seed.

I have given several.
1. Inconsistencies and ambiguity
2. Unbelievable miracles
3. Immorality supported by the God of the Bible, e.g sexism, homophobia, genocide, slavery, everlasting hellfire and damnation

Why would the Bible have mistakes? Isn't God capable of looking after his book? Surely that's easy?

I didn't say you are saved. I said I believe you will be saved. Perhaps I am wrong, and you will throw up your hands, and decide to go murder someone tomorrow. But otherwise I believe Christ will save you. This may be at the judgment day when you feel His presence, and realize you were wrong. Of course that will be kinda late, so I would expect a huge reward...
There is no clear mechanism by which people are saved. I get a different story from every Christian I interact with.

I don't think they wrote of any fulfillment of Daniels prophecies. Indeed, I think Revelation continues the prophecies of Daniel 7, and many others. But lets take Daniel 9 for example:
...

Ok, I would say that demonstrates a predictive ability very well. Once one understands that God sometimes used a day for a year, the prophecy is easy to understand.

Is that your own analysis or have you cut and paste that from an apologist site? I remain unconvinced that anything supernatural is going on here. We don't know when any of this was written down. We don't know if what you say cross-correlates and that there isn't another simple explanation. It convinces you clearly but I think it's just post hoc rationalisations. The "prophecy fulfilled" that's usually trotted out is Isaiah 53 as a foreshadowing of Jesus' suffering. The gospel writers clearly read Isaiah before constructing their narrative.

What is contradictory to you about it?
Judas felt so guilty that he committed suicide. He represents the guilt of those who turn on Christ - and the danger to their soul.

Read Matthew 27 and Acts 1 and ask yourself 2 questions:
1. How did Judas die exactly?
2. Who bought the field with the money?

Nope. They are not the property of the master, like other property. They have rights, and the other laws apply to them. If they were mere chattel, their servitude wouldn't end. If the "owner" wants to sell them, they don't get a fresh period of servitude, but the new owner is buying the remainder of the service period. So again they are really buying the service and not the person.

We will have to agree to disagree. It's not good enough for today's society. In fact it's appalling.
There's no vision in the Bible for the abolition of slavery. If there had been Wilberforce wouldn't have had as much trouble as he did.


What seems evil to you is that God seems to breaking His own laws. But God knows their hearts, and we don't. You also assume that God is sending them to hell or something without a chance of trial. I think they get their trial, and another chance at it most likely on the new earth God will make.

Evil or immorality is simply to do with harming oneself and others. Moral behaviour is simply to do with increasing wellbeing to myself and others. It's something that the Bible just doesn't get.
 
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RevTestament

New member
I have given several.
1. Inconsistencies and ambiguity
2. Unbelievable miracles
3. Immorality supported by the God of the Bible, e.g sexism, homophobia, genocide, slavery, everlasting hellfire and damnation
1. You still haven't given a specific EXAMPLE. Alleging it has inconsistencies is easier than actually positively showing that. Yeah, I can show one number in one book and a different number in a different book. These are scrivener's errors. They don't matter to the import of the law.
2. "Unbelievable miracles" - well I can see that you have hardened your heart against the word of God so I'm not sure why I keep trying. With God, one must think in the realm of possible, and not impossible.
3. "immorality" - God does not support immorality. The morals in His law are where the morals of our society and the constitution came from and why it has been so successful up til now - to do unto your neighbor as you would have them do unto you, etc.
It is people such as yourself who are critical of these, who are causing our society to abandon these morals which will cause the necessity of God's intervention.
God created man as sexual beings with a purpose - to be able to procreate and continue the work of God. Homosexuality is a perversion of that purpose. Those things which frustrate the purpose of God are "evil" in His sight. Being a hired servant is not evil. If one has a debt, one is expected to pay it off.
The Bible does not teach to commit genocide. We are not to got to war unless God commands it. On the whole God doesn't command it. There are but few examples in the Bible, and they were people who adulterated the law they received from Noah by becoming idolatrous. The punishment for idolatry was death.
Perhaps you would allege that God is immoral by designing us all to die? Is designing mortality and death genocide?
Why would the Bible have mistakes? Isn't God capable of looking after his book? Surely that's easy?
Men made the mistakes. But as I have said, the ones I have found do not impact the law or anything of import. Although the Masoretes preserved the law, they were still apostate, and did not have the gift of the Holy Spirit.
There is no clear mechanism by which people are saved. I get a different story from every Christian I interact with.
The mechanism is clear, but the interpretations of it are varied. I pose these differences are a result of the prophesied harlot of Revelation who perverted the Way.

Is that your own analysis or have you cut and paste that from an apologist site? I remain unconvinced that anything supernatural is going on here. We don't know when any of this was written down.
Since Daniel appears in the Septuagint we can be confident that it was written by that time in the 3rd or 4rth centuries BC. The fact that it was written down at the time of the Babylonian exile is further corroborated by it's being in the Aramaic tongue of the Babylonians.

We don't know if what you say cross-correlates and that there isn't another simple explanation. It convinces you clearly but I think it's just post hoc rationalisations. The "prophecy fulfilled" that's usually trotted out is Isaiah 53 as a foreshadowing of Jesus' suffering. The gospel writers clearly read Isaiah before constructing their narrative.
Is there a problem with prophecy being fulfilled? What is the point of making a prophecy if it is not going to be fulfilled? Of course they referred to the prophecies of Jesus. Every prophet had spoken of Him. So it was their effort to show that Jesus was who He claimed.

Read Matthew 27 and Acts 1 and ask yourself 2 questions:
1. How did Judas die exactly?
2. Who bought the field with the money?

We will have to agree to disagree. It's not good enough for today's society. In fact it's appalling.
There's no vision in the Bible for the abolition of slavery. If there had been Wilberforce wouldn't have had as much trouble as he did.
The slavery of England and the U.S. was nothing like Biblical servitude. And yes, they were appalling. Muslims similarly had appalling slavery, but it is little known. But I dare say more slaves died in the Muslim slave trade than the western slave trade. It was an ancient consequence of war.

Evil or immorality is simply to do with harming oneself and others. Moral behaviour is simply to do with increasing wellbeing to myself and others. It's something that the Bible just doesn't get.
Sure it does. It teaches it. It does NOT teach to go to war. You should note that after God told the people to eliminate the idolatrous people, he did not tell them to go to war anymore, but brought war to them due to their own idolatry. Simply put, idolatry brings spiritual death. God is not immoral for designing us all to die is he? or for introducing disease which brings harm, etc?
 

Spectrox War

New member
1. You still haven't given a specific EXAMPLE. Alleging it has inconsistencies is easier than actually positively showing that.

Oh come off it Reverend! Have you not read a single word I've written?

Full Definition of POOR (Merriam & Webster)

1
a : lacking material possessions
b : of, relating to, or characterized by poverty
2
a : less than adequate : meager
b : small in worth
3
: exciting pity <you poor thing>
4
a : inferior in quality or value
b : humble, unpretentious
c : mean, petty

I am using definitions 2a and 4a.

I have already given numerous examples. But just to recap:

1. Immorality - e.g. genocide - read Numbers 31. If you cannot spot the obvious immorality in what Yahweh orders Moses to do then I think there's something wrong with you. All you are doing is trying to defend the indefensible. Never a good idea.

2. Unbelievable miracles - e.g.
(a) the talking serpent in Genesis or the talking donkey in Numbers 22. Are we seriously expected to literally believe these stories as real events?
(b) Jesus withering the fig tree - this is the only story I've read where I felt sorry for a tree. It wasn't the trees' fault. Maybe God Hates Figs?
(c) Long dead Holy Men coming out of their graves near the end of Matthew's gospel walking around Jerusalem, like something out of Shaun of the Dead. Bizarre.

3. Inconsistencies - I noticed you didn't answer my questions about the events surrounding the death of Judas. Once again I gave a specific example and asked 2 questions which you either overlooked accidentally or just ignored.

Yeah, I can show one number in one book and a different number in a different book. These are scrivener's errors. They don't matter to the import of the law.
2. "Unbelievable miracles" - well I can see that you have hardened your heart against the word of God so I'm not sure why I keep trying. With God, one must think in the realm of possible, and not impossible.
3. "immorality" - God does not support immorality. The morals in His law are where the morals of our society and the constitution came from and why it has been so successful up til now - to do unto your neighbor as you would have them do unto you, etc.

In terms of your point 2, what good reasons would I
have for believing such outlandish claims? If such claims appeared in another book would you automatically accept them? If not why not?

In terms of your point 3, what is your starting point definition of moral behaviour? I believe you are just cherry-picking.

It is people such as yourself who are critical of these, who are causing our society to abandon these morals which will cause the necessity of God's intervention.

Like I asked, what is your starting point definition of moral behaviour? I think this is the root of your problem.

God created man as sexual beings with a purpose - to be able to procreate and continue the work of God. Homosexuality is a perversion of that purpose. Those things which frustrate the purpose of God are "evil" in His sight. Being a hired servant is not evil. If one has a debt, one is expected to pay it off.

So must all sexual acts give conception a chance? How does this fit with an overpopulated world?

If so, then what are your views on contraception or if the woman is barren and the man is firing blanks? Should they abstain?

How would you inform your (hypothetical) gay son that he shouldn't act on any of his sexual urges?

The Bible does not teach to commit genocide. We are not to got to war unless God commands it. On the whole God doesn't command it. There are but few examples in the Bible, and they were people who adulterated the law they received from Noah by becoming idolatrous. The punishment for idolatry was death.

genocide = extermination of another race. How is my example in Numbers 21 any different? (Here's a clue - it isn't)

Perhaps you would allege that God is immoral by designing us all to die? Is designing mortality and death genocide?

I am (to a first approximation) opposed to death and dying which is why I would call myself a trans-humanist as well as an ignostic. Although I recognise moral dilemmas and that aborting a foetus or allowing assisted suicide under controlled conditions may sometimes be the least bad thing.

So yes you could argue that if your God was real, he kills thousands of people every day. Death by natural causes is a bit different to murder though. And if I saw an injustice or someone beating another person or an evil act taking place in front of me, I would intervene. That's the difference between me and your God.

Men made the mistakes. But as I have said, the ones I have found do not impact the law or anything of import. Although the Masoretes preserved the law, they were still apostate, and did not have the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If God created everything in existence, how hard can it be to look after a book? This is ridiculous.

The mechanism is clear, but the interpretations of it are varied. I pose these differences are a result of the prophesied harlot of Revelation who perverted the Way.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Since Daniel appears in the Septuagint we can be confident that it was written by that time in the 3rd or 4rth centuries BC. The fact that it was written down at the time of the Babylonian exile is further corroborated by it's being in the Aramaic tongue of the Babylonians.

Is there a problem with prophecy being fulfilled? What is the point of making a prophecy if it is not going to be fulfilled? Of course they referred to the prophecies of Jesus. Every prophet had spoken of Him. So it was their effort to show that Jesus was who He claimed.

Perhaps it might be best, instead of producing a hundred different claims to wade through is to choose what you think is the single best example of a prophecy fulfilled - one that is clear, specific and demonstrates predictive capability. If I don't find that convincing, it's unlikely I'll find any others convincing.

The slavery of England and the U.S. was nothing like Biblical servitude. And yes, they were appalling. Muslims similarly had appalling slavery, but it is little known. But I dare say more slaves died in the Muslim slave trade than the western slave trade. It was an ancient consequence of war.

How do you know? According to Exodus 21 you can beat your slave pretty badly. How is that in any way morally acceptable?

Sure it does. It teaches it. It does NOT teach to go to war. You should note that after God told the people to eliminate the idolatrous people, he did not tell them to go to war anymore, but brought war to them due to their own idolatry. Simply put, idolatry brings spiritual death. God is not immoral for designing us all to die is he? or for introducing disease which brings harm, etc?
It does teach to go to war. Exodus 21. You are just cherry-picking.
Idolatry is pretty important to your God. In fact I think the first 3 Commandments are anti-idolatrous self-protection. It may have benefitted humanity more if one of those was substituted for "Slavery is wrong." Or is that too difficult for your God to write?

Look, Reverend. You're probably a nice bloke. If I met you in the street I would probably like you. But here. In this place. I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye.
 

Spectrox War

New member
Good to see that we've solved that Jesus was real. Now the problem seems to be whether slavery was.

No. No one has met the burden of proof that Jesus of Nazareth as portrayed in the gospels was a real geographical-historical figure. Unless you have some reliable contemporary evidence to share?

The question you need to ask about slavery is which is a better situation for humanity out of 1,2 or 3 below?

1. Slavery was legal in Biblical times OR
2. Slavery was legal in 18th century UK and US OR
3. Slavery is now illegal in the UK and US.
 

Spectrox War

New member
1. You still haven't given a specific EXAMPLE. Alleging it has inconsistencies is easier than actually positively showing that. Yeah, I can show one number in one book and a different number in a different book. These are scrivener's errors. They don't matter to the import of the law.

Soz. I misread your opening and thought you were referring to my charge that the Bible is poor or flawed. OK, the 3 worst inconsistencies are:

A. The 4 different accounts of the resurrection

Mark says there were 2 Marys and Salome, 1 white man in shining garments, and the stone was already moved out of the way of the front of the tomb. There is also the issue that the original version of Mark ends with an empty tomb and the women being afraid. No resurrection is stated. Mark was supposed to be the first gospel written which makes tagged on endings about a resurrection highly suspect.

Luke says there were 2 Marys and Joanna and other women, 2 white men in shining garments, and the stone was already moved out of the way of the front of the tomb.

John only mentions Mary who then went to fetch Simon Peter, 2 angels present, and the stone was already moved out of the way of the front of the tomb.

Matthew says there were 2 Marys, then there is an Earthquake which the other gospel writers didn't consider important enough to mention, and then 1 angel sat on the stone.

I couldn't put them all together and make a sensible narrative.

B. The events surrounding the death of Judas in Matthew 27 and Acts 1- I've already asked the questions twice now. These highlight 2 inconsistencies.

C. Jesus changed a lot of the old law which he had presumably written in a previous incarnation as Yahweh? The OT says God is unchanging. The NT changes many aspects of the OT God's wishes. The OT and the NT are not talking about the same God as much as Christians try to stretch the truth.
 
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