ECT WAS ISRAEL REALLY SET ASIDE AND WHEN ??

[Jerry Shugart]

You're mixing apples and oranges Jerry.

You are ignoring the Scriptures because Paul says that the middle wall of partition has been broken down between the Gentile believers and the Jewish believers.

The calling of the twelve was specific to Israel and their calling. That is why the Bible says that their calling did not change.

Yes, in the future the Jews will be restored to their previous position as the LORD's special people on the earth. But NOW, the middle wall of partition between the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles has been broken down (Eph.2:14). According to your ideas the middle wall of partition which once separated the two is still standing.

Of course you just ignored what Paul said there. And you made no mention of the fact that Jews have indeed been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). According to your ideas only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ and others were not.

Please explain why some of those first century Jewish believers were indeed baptized into the Body while others were not.

Apparently you are still ignorant of this mystery.

It is you who is ignorant of the fact that the middle wall of partition which separated the Jews from the Gentiles has been broken down.

What will happen when the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in"?

After that there will be a new generation of Jews who will once again be the LORD's special people upon the earth and then what is written about the nation's New Covenant will be fulfilled.

Why do you continue to deny that the middle wall of partition has been broken down that previously separated the Jews from the Gentiles even though Paul makes that fact plain?

 

[Right Divider]

You are ignoring the Scriptures because Paul says that the middle wall of partition has been broken down between the Gentile believers and the Jewish believers.

And that is completely true. But is does NOT affect the calling that the twelve had. This is why they agreed to keep their ministry to the circumcision per Gal 2:9

The affects of that can be seem here:

Acts 11:19 (AKJV/PCE)​

(11:19) ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. ​

Yes, in the future the Jews will be restored to their previous position as the LORD's special people on the earth. But NOW, the middle wall of partition between the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles has been broken down (Eph.2:14). According to your ideas the middle wall of partition which once separated the two is still standing.

Another false accusation.

Of course you just ignored what Paul said there. And you made no mention of the fact that Jews have indeed been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). According to your ideas only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ and others were not.

Please explain why some of those first century Jewish believers were indeed baptized into the Body while others were not.

Because they had a calling that did not change per Romans 11:29

This passage also explains that:

1Cor 7:17-20 (AKJV/PCE)​

(7:17) But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. (7:18) Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. (7:19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. (7:20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. ​

It is you who is ignorant of the fact that the middle wall of partition which separated the Jews from the Gentiles has been broken down.

It was NOT a retroactive change for those that already had their calling. The twelve apostles will still judge the twelve tribes of Israel from their twelve thrones.

After that there will be a new generation of Jews who will once again be the LORD's special people upon the earth and then what is written about the nation's New Covenant will be fulfilled.

Why do you continue to deny that the middle wall of partition has been broken down that previously separated the Jews from the Gentiles even though Paul makes that fact plain?

Because you misapply it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And that is completely true. But is does NOT affect the calling that the twelve had. This is why they agreed to keep their ministry to the circumcision per Gal 2:9

At the time of Galatians 2:9 the nation of Israel had already been temporarily cast aside. So their ministry had nothing to do with the whole nation being saved but instead the Jews who were being saved then were baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).

But according to your ideas only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ and others were not. Again, please explain why some of those first century Jewish believers were indeed baptized into the Body while others were not.

Because they had a calling that did not change per Romans 11:29

The calling was in regard to the whole nation but by the time Paul wrote that the nation was already temporarily set aside. As already explained, in the future there will be a generation of Jews who will indeed made the calling of the LORD sure. But you had no answer for that.

Besides that, those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the body were waiting for that.

Now please explain why you think Paul made an error when he said that the middle wall of partition was broken down because according to your ideas it remained up in regard to those who received the Hebrew epistles.

 

[DAN P]

At the time of Galatians 2:9 the nation of Israel had already been temporarily cast aside. So their ministry had nothing to do with the whole nation being saved but instead the Jews who were being saved then were baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).

But according to your ideas only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ and others were not. Again, please explain why some of those first century Jewish believers were indeed baptized into the Body while others were not.



The calling was in regard to the whole nation but by the time Paul wrote that the nation was already temporarily set aside. As already explained, in the future there will be a generation of Jews who will indeed made the calling of the LORD sure. But you had no answer for that.

Besides that, those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the body were waiting for that.

Now please explain why you think Paul made an error when he said that the middle wall of partition was broken down because according to your ideas it remained up in regard to those who received the Hebrew epistles.

Hi Jerry and even after Israel was set aside as 2 Cor 3:13-16 , they have been reading the OT and not understanding the OT !!

You just believe that the whole context in the bible is for Israel and the B O C and always blend both together and is confusing to many young believers !!

All scripture has to be looked at by the following 4 ways !!

#1 CONTEXT

#2 DISPENSATIONAL

#3 GRAMMARICAL

#4, HISTORICAL

And any thing less causes confusion !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and even after Israel was set aside as 2 Cor 3:13-16 , they have been reading the OT and not understanding the OT !!

Some of them were but on the other hand the believers were baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).

You just believe that the whole context in the bible is for Israel and the B O C and always blend both together and is confusing to many young believers !!

It is your ideas that are very confusing and makes no sense whatsoever.

The Hebrew epistles were written during the present dispensation and received by those living in the present dispensation. And those epistles will be searched in vain for any evidence that the authors of those epistles told the readers that their teaching is not for the time they were written and received.

But you throw reason to the wind and teach that the teaching found in those epistles is not for the present dispensation but instead for a future dispensation!

You are totally CONFUSED!

 

[Right Divider]

At the time of Galatians 2:9 the nation of Israel had already been temporarily cast aside. So their ministry had nothing to do with the whole nation being saved but instead the Jews who were being saved then were baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).

But according to your ideas only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ and others were not. Again, please explain why some of those first century Jewish believers were indeed baptized into the Body while others were not.

Because the nation of Israel and the body of Christ have different callings and those that were called as the nation of Israel remained so.

The calling was in regard to the whole nation but by the time Paul wrote that the nation was already temporarily set aside. As already explained, in the future there will be a generation of Jews who will indeed made the calling of the LORD sure. But you had no answer for that.

You're deaf to any answer.

Besides that, those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the body were waiting for that.

Not true.

Now please explain why you think Paul made an error when he said that the middle wall of partition was broken down because according to your ideas it remained up in regard to those who received the Hebrew epistles.

If you cannot tell the doctrinal difference between Paul's epistles and the epistles of James, John, Peter and the book to the Hebrews, there is nothing that I can do for you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because the nation of Israel and the body of Christ have different callings and those that were called as the nation of Israel remained so.

Do not know that the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13)? Do you think those Jews had a different calling than the other members of the Body of Christ?

Do you really think that the teaching found in the Hebrew epistles is in regard to a calling in regard to the nation of Israel despite the fact that nation had already been temporarily set aside by the time when those epistles were written?

Does the following calling apply to the nation of Israel that had already been set aside?:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).​

I also said:

Besides that, those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the body were waiting for that.​

Here is your answer:

Not true.

In that case let us look at the words of James here:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

Now tell us why you do not think that James speaks of an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Right Divider]

Do not know that the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13)? Do you think those Jews had a different calling than the other members of the Body of Christ?

It depends on whether they are part of the nation or the body.

Do you really think that the teaching found in the Hebrew epistles is in regard to a calling in regard to the nation of Israel despite the fact that nation had already been temporarily set aside by the time when those epistles were written?

Does the following calling apply to the nation of Israel that had already been set aside?:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).​

The body of Christ has no priesthood, so the LANGUAGE is clearly speaking to those that DID.

The "heavenly calling" for them had to do with the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 4:17 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:17) ¶ From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. ​

This is the SAME kingdom that Christ told THEM to pray for:

Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. ​

It's not hard to understand.

I also said:

Besides that, those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the body were waiting for that.​

Here is your answer:

And yet here we are 2000 years later. Perhaps there were things that they did not know until Paul told them. (2 Peter 3:15).

Note that Peter says "according to the wisdom given unto him" and not to us.

In that case let us look at the words of James here:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

James is one of the earliest writings of the "New Testament". There were many things that had not been revealed yet and many things that James did not know.

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

Now tell us why you do not think that James speaks of an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus.

And yet James writes to the TWELVE TRIBES .... such ignorance to simply avoid the clear meaning of James 1:1

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And yet James writes to the TWELVE TRIBES .... such ignorance to simply avoid the clear meaning of James 1:1

So are you saying that because James writes to the twelve tribes that the coming of the Lord of which he speaks is not imminent?

Is that your argument?

It depends on whether they are part of the nation or the body.

What determined if a Jewish believer was in the Body or in the kingdom? I would like to see some of your Scriptural support for that idea.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

D'ism reads the NT as though it was background-free. In fact, it was primarily about the window of that generation, and yes, the world was going to end with the DofJ and then the NHNE were to come.

There was an allowance for a delay of the NHNE.

Eschatology views stand or fall on whether they separate 1st century Judea material (Mt 24:1-29) from worldwide judgement material (Mt 24:29+), that was originally supposed to happen right after the DofJ, but also could be delayed. It was, 2 Peter 3.

The LORD defends Jerusalem at his return.
70ad is the complete opposite.

 

[Interplanner]

The LORD defends Jerusalem at his return.
70ad is the complete opposite.

That would be the Jerusalem of Heb 12:22+, also mentioned in ch 11.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That would be the Jerusalem of Heb 12:22+, also mentioned in ch 11.

:chuckle:

Defend the new Jerusalem from what?

 

[Right Divider]

So are you saying that because James writes to the twelve tribes that the coming of the Lord of which he speaks is not imminent?

Is that your argument?

You're trying to twist my words again Jerry, VERY dishonest of you.

James SPECIFICALLY addresses his epistle to the TWELVE TRIBES and yet you must try to deflect this CLEAR statement in the VERY FIRST VERSE.

If this epistle is a general writing to "Christians", what tribe do the gentiles get thrown into?

What determined if a Jewish believer was in the Body or in the kingdom? I would like to see some of your Scriptural support for that idea.

Whatever calling they are identified with.

After Israel was temporarily set aside, there was only one option for both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're trying to twist my words again Jerry, VERY dishonest of you.

James SPECIFICALLY addresses his epistle to the TWELVE TRIBES and yet you must try to deflect this CLEAR statement in the VERY FIRST VERSE.

You didn't even address the fact that James spoke of an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus. Why not? Who is being dishonest?

Earlier you denied that the Hebrews epistles speak of an imminent coming but when I proved that we see that kind of coming in the epistle of James you didn't even say anything about that. Why not?

After Israel was temporarily set aside, there was only one option for both Jews and Gentiles.

Yes, and all of the Hebrew epistles were written after Israel was temporarily set aside. And the only option for ALL of the believing Jews at that time was a baptism into the Body.

Now I wait for you to finally address the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus.

You can't run and hide forever!

 

[DAN P]

You didn't even address the fact that James spoke of an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus. Why not? Who is being dishonest?

Earlier you denied that the Hebrews epistles speak of an imminent coming but when I proved that we see that kind of coming in the epistle of James you didn't even say anything about that. Why not?



Yes, and all of the Hebrew epistles were written after Israel was temporarily set aside. And the only option for ALL of the believing Jews at that time was a baptism into the Body.

Now I wait for you to finally address the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus.

You can't run and hide forever!

Hi Jerry and then explain 2 Cor 3:13-16 ?

Now tell us what it means , that the Law of Moses is being ABOLISHED , is that true ??

So what verse explains how Jews are to be saved during Paul's early ministry , especially in the light of Acts 18:5 Paul was preaching to the Jews , Jesus the CHRIST / MESSIAH ??

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and then explain 2 Cor 3:13-16 ?

Dan, if you have a point to make about those verses then tell us what your point is.

Thanks!

 

[DAN P]

Dan, if you have a point to make about those verses then tell us what your point is.

Thanks!

Hi Jerry and I have already explained what they mean , so it is your TURN to explain ??

I gave you the verse , so stop avoiding them !!

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

You didn't even address the fact that James spoke of an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus. Why not? Who is being dishonest?

Because it is irrelevant to the TARGET AUDIENCE of the books.

Of course they expected His imminent return.

Matt 10:23 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. ​

Why would they NOT expect His imminent return when He had said that?

Earlier you denied that the Hebrews epistles speak of an imminent coming but when I proved that we see that kind of coming in the epistle of James you didn't even say anything about that. Why not?

That is a LIE Jerry.

Yes, and all of the Hebrew epistles were written after Israel was temporarily set aside. And the only option for ALL of the believing Jews at that time was a baptism into the Body.

Now I wait for you to finally address the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus.

You can't run and hide forever!

You're confused and lying Jerry.

 

[Tambora]

James SPECIFICALLY addresses his epistle to the TWELVE TRIBES

Yeppers.
Which is not a phrase used of the BOC.

 

[Tambora]

:chuckle:

Defend the new Jerusalem from what?

I was wondering the same.