egyptianmuslim
New member
Not true. God knows that Adam will choose evil because God Who knows the future and He Who manages the world now and before. Adam, human was created to make sins, it is not out of the choice of God.
Was God responsible for Adam's sin?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Not true. God knows that Adam will choose evil because God Who knows the future and He Who manages the world now and before. Adam, human was created to make sins, it is not out of the choice of God.
Perhaps the "elect 1%" get the teachings from their fathers and it is they who are then allowed to indoctrinate the goyim. But the issue I raised is not even about whether Cain and Abel were literal physical human beings, (the first murder had to occur somewhere, and there is both the literal and the supernal understanding of it) but rather when a person believes Cain literally physically murdered Abel, (acceptable) AND also believes it was the will of God, (not acceptable) that is the issue because it clearly implies that the Father broke His own commandment by exercising His will upon Cain to cause Cain to murder Abel.
Exodus 20:13
13. You shalt not ratsach-murder-kill.
More concerning the Father hiding His face from the evils of his people:
Isaiah 63:8-10
8. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Numbers 32:13
13. And anger of YHWH was kindled against Yisrael, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the `eyney-eyes of YHWH, was consumed.
Deuteronomy 4:25
25. When you shall beget children, and children's children, and you shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the `eyney-eyes of YHWH thy Elohim, to provoke him to anger:
Deuteronomy 31:29-30
29. For I know that after my death you will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because you will do evil in the `eyney-eyes of YHWH, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30. And Moshe spoke in the ears of all the congregation of Yisrael the words of this song, until they were ended.
Zechariah 3:9
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Yhoshua; upon one stone shall be seven `eynayim-eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, says YHWH Tsabaoth, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zechariah 4:9-10
9. The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and you shalt know that YHWH Tsabaoth has sent me unto you!
10. For who shall despise the abbreviated day? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the stone of the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven: they are the `eyney-eyes of YHWH, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Revelation 5:6
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all the earth.
The seven Elohim-Angels are the seven eyes of YHWH.
YHWH Elohim does not "know" evil.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
He doesn't.
A pause for some levity....
Top 10 Reasons I am a Calvinist
1. Calvinists tend to wear wool and cotton. Dispensationalists tend to wear lime-green polyester leisure suits.
2. John Calvin was French...being French is very chic.
3. Calvin sounds like Calvin Klein...and his clothes are very chic.
4. Calvinists can drink.
5. Calvinists can smoke.
6. Dispensationalists are into prophecy conferences where they talk about Star-Trek eschatology and the mark of the Beast. Calvinists have conferences on "life and culture", art, social justice, and other high-brow things like that. Afterwards, we go to the local pub and talk about philosophy over a pint of Bass ale.
7. Calvinists have close ties with Scotland and Scotland is very cool: you know --Sean Connery, the movie Highlander, Bagpipes, the Loch Ness Monster, Glenlivet 18 year old Scotch, the movie Train Spotting, Braveheart, etc.
8. Calvinists think we are smarter than anybody else.
9. It is more socially acceptable to say, "I go to Grace Presbyterian Church" than to say, "I go to Washed In The Blood Worship Center", "I go to Son Life Charismatic Believers Assembly", or to say "I go to Boston Berean Bible Believing Baptist Bethel", or to say "I go to the Latter-Day-Rain Deliverance Tabernacle Prophecy Center, Inc.", or to say "I go to the Philadelphia Church of the Majority Text", or to say "I go to the Lithuanian Apostolic Orthodox Autocephalic Church of the Baltic union of 1838".
10. Ultimately, I am a Calvinist because I had no choice in the matter.
AMR
beloved57
Well-known member
amr
Thats a lie ! That shows your super ignorance of the word author !
The True God, which you dont believe in, is the First Cause of the doer of sin, and when the doer did it, it was according to The First Causer predetermined purpose and will, not by His Permission, permission denotes that God would have rather not sin was brought into the world by the doer.
Author:
the maker of anything; creator; originator:
Thats a lie ! That shows your super ignorance of the word author !
The True God, which you dont believe in, is the First Cause of the doer of sin, and when the doer did it, it was according to The First Causer predetermined purpose and will, not by His Permission, permission denotes that God would have rather not sin was brought into the world by the doer.
Author:
the maker of anything; creator; originator:
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
You need to read more slowly. God is not the author of sin, for that would mean God is the doer of sin. As you state "...God is the First Cause of the doer of sin.." If you are trying to make a point, you are failing miserably.
AMR
Although I knew my son would sin, I still sired him knowing full well he would inherit sin and death. Am I responsible for my son's sin?
God created lucifer holy and without sin.
And the same with Adam. Adam was without sin and created holy.
If anything can be said without contradicting what has been revealed to creation that God is light and in Him is no darkness neither shadow of turning, I can go out on a limb and give my observation.
There is only one perfect being and He is Jehovah the God of the universe. Any created being although holy has the ability to make a choice contrary to the state of holiness in which God creates. Man was created in the state of unconfirmed creaturely holiness.
When Lucifer sinned God confirmed him in eternal sinfulness and he became an unholy fallen being. Man was created in the very image of God. The Angels were not created in His image. And to man God provided salvation.
Therefore it is not God who is guilty of creating an imperfect race of beings. He simply created Adam with the ability to choose against his nature.
We who inherit Adams death are not contradicting the nature in which Adam was created (unconfirmed creaturely holiness) when we choose to sin. We have no choice of whether or not to sin we are dealt out the results of Adam.
Our nature is the sin nature that cannot be renovated or changed it can only be put to death. When we hear the gospel and recieve Messiah we are making a choice that is totally contrary to the fallen sin nature of which we were in bondage. Calvin was right in our total depravity but he did not accept the word of God which teaches that our ability to make a choice for God against our nature had to be by divine enabling. By divine enablement the sinner excercises his will and supernaturally chooses God. The elect do not have unlimited free will like the arm's believe, but God granted enablem in order for the elect to place their faith on and seek and follow after Messiah. Which is why my dear chap, faith is not, in the context of the gospel, a work.
Greg Jennings
New member
If God is omniscient, then he knew that Adam and/or Eve would give in to temptation. So yes, I think it's fair to say God set them up to fail. They still made their own decision, but God knew what decision they would make before he created anything, and still let it happen
beloved57
Well-known member
Yes, and God if He wanted to could have kept Adam from sinning against Him, as He did in this case Gen 20:6
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
That word withheld chasak and means:
I.to withhold, restrain, hold back, keep in check, refrain
A.(Qal)
i.to withhold, keep back, keep for oneself, keep from, hold in check, refrain, spare, reserve
ii.to restrain, check
B.(Niphal) to assuage, be spared
Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.ESV
So its quite obvious that Adams sin was predetermined by God !
That's your human evaluation based on human emotions from a creaturely perspective. It may be feasible unless scripture (the final authority) dictated otherwise. Which is why your position is the product of one who on this matter, the final authority is human reasoning and not the word of God. No suprise.
Ok, too deep for your mind.
beloved57
Well-known member
More evasion!
SonOfCaleb
Active member
This kind of logic makes no sense at all.
If God knew what Adam was going to do then the test was pointless.
If God knew what Adam was going to do then God is fully complicit in Adams sin.
If God knew what Adam was going to do then God is culpable of even greater sin than what Adam committed condemning the entirety of humanity to death.
If God knew what Adam was going to do the ransom sacrifice EG the promised Messiah Jesus would also be pointless.
If God knew what Adam was going to do the ENTIRE Bible would be a lie.
If God knew what Adam was going to do then Satan would be vindicated and God would be the liar.
If God knew what Adam was going to do then organized religion of the Christian variety is utterly pointless.
I can go on...
SonOfCaleb
Active member
This is the same flawed Greek philosophy that Paul railed and argued against in the Areopagus with the so called learned Greek men and stoic philosophers. Judaism was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy so much so the belief in predestinarianism made its way not only into Judaism but also into Christianity.
First and foremost predestinarianism is pagan. Secondly nowhere in the scriptures is predestinarianism supported or the view that God is an omniscient being using his foreknowledge in the most infinite macro-detail to know the future the present and the past.
If God knew what Adam was going to do then free will obviously cant exist. And not only that God would be culpable with Adams actions. Therefore the view on predestinarianism doesn't accord with the scriptures.
As a God of prophecy though what we do see consistently throughout the scriptures is God exercising his foreknowledge about events that are linked to the outworking of his will. Therefore God chooses as when required according to his will to use his foreknowledge or not. But ALL creation has free will. Just the same way the angels who are now Demons have free will to also rebel against Jehovah.
If God wanted robots he'd have created them. In addition God is not a micro-manager. He lets his creation choose their path as he did with Cain, even warning him of the dangerous path he was on that led him to murder his brother Abel. But Cain made his choice. He also paid the penalty for his choice/disobedience as did his mother and father.
Greg Jennings
New member
I disagree with you somewhat. Adam still had free will to make whatever choice he wanted. But an omniscient being would know before he made a decision what that decision would be. Just because he knows what will unfold doesn't mean that God didn't give people free will. They're two more or less unrelated concepts
SonOfCaleb
Active member
The Bible says God is love. Matter of fact it says he is the epitome of love. If he knew Adam was going to sin how could that be loving considering what Adams sin caused.....Why would he even bother to send a Messiah when God would clearly be complicit in Adams sin setting him an impossible test....That kind of logic makes no sense. As it creates far more questions than answers and is completely contrary to what the Bible says.