Virginia Tech Horror Explained

[Frank Ernest]

So what. You make it sound as though I'm eager to jump onto a band wagon, Frank.

:darwinsm: Now, how would I ever get THAT idea?

The fact is, your theology condemns a good chunk of the murder victims to an eternity in hell, right where their killer went.

Very well. Please cite the appropriate references from "my" theology which support your insinuation that murder victims go to Hell. (Don't start with Matthew 7:1 as it will confuse you.)

The injustice in this picture is downright mind boggling, and the cries of indignation from Christians who--like it or not--must admit that many of those victims are now roasting for eternity strikes me as a tad hypocritical.

Become a Universalist and you won't have a problem. :up:

 

[Granite]

:darwinsm: Now, how would I ever get THAT idea?

Very well. Please cite the appropriate references from "my" theology which support your insinuation that murder victims go to Hell. (Don't start with Matthew 7:1 as it will confuse you.)

Become a Universalist and you won't have a problem. :up:

:rotfl:

I love situational unorthodoxy: allows you guys to weasel out of tough questions whenever you like. Thumbs up for your chutzpah!:thumb:

 

[PKevman]

:darwinsm: Now, how would I ever get THAT idea?

Very well. Please cite the appropriate references from "my" theology which support your insinuation that murder victims go to Hell. (Don't start with Matthew 7:1 as it will confuse you.)

Become a Universalist and you won't have a problem. :up:

Great question Frank, and I noticed it was ignored like Turbo's was. The fact is that no such verse or verses exist. The Bible doesn't say that all murder victims go to hell. I assume Granite has been deeply investigating the lives of each of these victims and is ready to determine which ones have a relationship with God and which ones don't. The real reason they continue to posit this stuff is their hatred of the Lord, and not because they are interested in discussing the matter. That is why Granite steadfastly refuses to answer the questions that have been asked of him thus far. Interesting responses here, and can't wait to listen to Bob's show!

:up:

 

[Granite]

Great question Frank, and I noticed it was ignored like Turbo's was. The fact is that no such verse or verses exist. The Bible doesn't say that all murder victims go to hell. I assume Granite has been deeply investigating the lives of each of these victims and is ready to determine which ones have a relationship with God and which ones don't. The real reason they continue to posit this stuff is their hatred of the Lord, and not because they are interested in discussing the matter. That is why Granite steadfastly refuses to answer the questions that have been asked of him thus far. Interesting responses here, and can't wait to listen to Bob's show!

:up:

Well Kev, I think your reading comprehension's right up there with Frank's...

I said a good number of these now dead college students will go to hell per Christian theology. Not all. Now I suppose if you guys actually read what I said as opposed to skimming my posts you would know that. Re-read them if you like but you just made a real silly mistake.

 

[chair]

Great question Frank, and I noticed it was ignored like Turbo's was. The fact is that no such verse or verses exist. The Bible doesn't say that all murder victims go to hell. I assume Granite has been deeply investigating the lives of each of these victims and is ready to determine which ones have a relationship with God and which ones don't. The real reason they continue to posit this stuff is their hatred of the Lord, and not because they are interested in discussing the matter. That is why Granite steadfastly refuses to answer the questions that have been asked of him thus far. Interesting responses here, and can't wait to listen to Bob's show!

:up:

Hello, Pastor. I have been away, so we haven't spoken for a while.

Please explain to me where I misunderstand you, or where my logic is wrong:

1. All men go to eternal punishment, unless they accept the gift of grace given by Jesus.
2. Therefore, if any of the murder victims at Virginia Tech did not accept Jesus, they are now suffering eternal punishment.

I will take it for granted that the murderer was not "saved", so he will suffer eternal punishment.

It is highly likely, given the number of victims, that some were not beliving Christians, so this is not really a theoretical question. Some of the victims, if I understand your theology properly (again, please correct me if I have you wrong) will end up in Hell. Nobody here was claiming that you think "all murder victims go to Hell", only that the "unsaved" go to Hell, and some of the victims (like an Israeli professor) were unsaved.

There are some historical examples that are even worse. A particularly painful one:

1. Nazis who participated in mass murder end up in Hell.
2. Anybody who grew up in a Christian country, and still rejected Jesus, ends up in Hell when they die.
3. Jews who lived iin Christian Europe rejected Jesus, so when they died they went to Hell.
4. Therefore, Jews who were murdered by Nazis ended up in Hell, along with the Nazis that killed them.

What part of these statements do you not agree with? Is there some flaw in my logic here? Or perhaps this is wha you believe - it is just the way the world works, whether we like it or not.

Chair

 

[Granite]

Chair, I must say, put together perfectly what I was thinking.

Hopefully his eloquence makes the point with which we agree on easy for everyone to understand.

 

[Gerald]

What, no mention of demonic possession...?

 

[Granite]

What, no mention of demonic possession...?

I'm actually surprised that hasn't come up yet.

Although the idea that this was a government black op and that the shooter was a mind-controlled assassin has, natch.

 

[Gerald]

I'm actually surprised that hasn't come up yet.

Although the idea that this was a government black op and that the shooter was a mind-controlled assassin has, natch.

Oh, I gotta see that! Link, please?

 

[Granite]

Oh, I gotta see that! Link, please?

http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/breaking_news/2007/04/17/unanswered.shtml

http://rense.com/general76/killer.htm

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/160407blackop.htm

The last one (big surprise: Prison Planet!) is the most blatant of the bunch.

 

[PKevman]

Hello, Pastor. I have been away, so we haven't spoken for a while.

Please explain to me where I misunderstand you, or where my logic is wrong:

1. All men go to eternal punishment, unless they accept the gift of grace given by Jesus.
2. Therefore, if any of the murder victims at Virginia Tech did not accept Jesus, they are now suffering eternal punishment.

I will take it for granted that the murderer was not "saved", so he will suffer eternal punishment.

It is highly likely, given the number of victims, that some were not beliving Christians, so this is not really a theoretical question. Some of the victims, if I understand your theology properly (again, please correct me if I have you wrong) will end up in Hell. Nobody here was claiming that you think "all murder victims go to Hell", only that the "unsaved" go to Hell, and some of the victims (like an Israeli professor) were unsaved.

There are some historical examples that are even worse. A particularly painful one:

1. Nazis who participated in mass murder end up in Hell.
2. Anybody who grew up in a Christian country, and still rejected Jesus, ends up in Hell when they die.
3. Jews who lived iin Christian Europe rejected Jesus, so when they died they went to Hell.
4. Therefore, Jews who were murdered by Nazis ended up in Hell, along with the Nazis that killed them.

What part of these statements do you not agree with? Is there some flaw in my logic here? Or perhaps this is wha you believe - it is just the way the world works, whether we like it or not.

Chair

If you so well understand the requirements for attaining salvation, your excuses for rejecting Christ become more and more hollow. I understand completely that the driven goal of yourself and others (see Granite) in this conversation is to discredit Jesus Christ and to mock Him because of judgment, so I'm gonna steal your thunder and state that up front. The Bible makes it plainly clear that if any person rejects Christ they have no hope for eternity. This is across the board. So of course the greatest tragedy is that people would go into eternity without a relationship with the Lord. But they wouldn't have anyone to blame.

We all have a choice to make as God doesn't force Himself on anyone. So if the question you are asking is, "is it possible some of the murder victims went to hell?", of course it is possible. But I don't know a single one of the murder victims, and neither do you, so that makes this all an entire speculation, and the only goal you and Granite have in mind is to say "Oh look at that mean and evil Christian theology in action again", and then you and your atheist and God-hating friends can all pat one another on the back and make yourselves feel better about the judgment that you face if you continue to reject Jesus Christ and refuse to repent for your sins. I won't offer you any such false comfort because I care more about you than that.

 

[Gerald]

http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/breaking_news/2007/04/17/unanswered.shtml

http://rense.com/general76/killer.htm

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/160407blackop.htm

The last one (big surprise: Prison Planet!) is the most blatant of the bunch.

Oh. I thought you meant around here.

These ought to be some amusing reads.

 

[Granite]

If you so well understand the requirements for attaining salvation, your excuses for rejecting Christ become more and more hollow. I understand completely that the driven goal of yourself and others (see Granite) in this conversation is to discredit Jesus Christ and to mock Him because of judgment, so I'm gonna steal your thunder and state that up front. The Bible makes it plainly clear that if any person rejects Christ they have no hope for eternity. This is across the board. So of course the greatest tragedy is that people would go into eternity without a relationship with the Lord. But they wouldn't have anyone to blame.

We all have a choice to make as God doesn't force Himself on anyone. So if the question you are asking is, "is it possible some of the murder victims went to hell?", of course it is possible. But I don't know a single one of the murder victims, and neither do you, so that makes this all an entire speculation, and the only goal you and Granite have in mind is to say "Oh look at that mean and evil Christian theology in action again", and then you and your atheist and God-hating friends can all pat one another on the back and make yourselves feel better about the judgment that you face if you continue to reject Jesus Christ and refuse to repent for your sins. I won't offer you any such false comfort because I care more about you than that.

So you lurked around this thread for all this time and this is the best you've got?

This is exceedingly weak.

 

[PKevman]

So you lurked around this thread for all this time and this is the best you've got?

This is exceedingly weak.

Actually I've been listening to Bob's show, but I'm glad you were looking out for me Granite.

 

[PKevman]

So you lurked around this thread for all this time and this is the best you've got?

This is exceedingly weak.

I answered the question honestly. Sorry if that bugs you.

 

[Granite]

Actually I've been listening to Bob's show, but I'm glad you were looking out for me Granite.

Well I don't expect much more out of you anyway, because you don't engage infidels on TOL. All you do is make a complaint about us being God-hating freaks, then you essentially do what I call a "gospel dump" and go through the same Jesus business we've heard before. You are totally unwilling to engage me, or chair, or any of the other heretics here.

And by the way, you flat out misrepresented or lied about me on this thread and for that I'd like an apology. I won't hold my breath, but it'd be nice.

 

[Granite]

I answered the question honestly. Sorry if that bugs you.

You avoided the questions and you already lied about me and what I've posted on this thread so I'd say your concept of "honesty" is fairly subjective.

 

[PKevman]

Well I don't expect much more out of you anyway, because you don't engage infidels on TOL. All you do is make a complaint about us being God-hating freaks, then you essentially do what I call a "gospel dump" and go through the same Jesus business we've heard before. You are totally unwilling to engage me, or chair, or any of the other heretics here.

And by the way, you flat out misrepresented or lied about me on this thread and for that I'd like an apology. I won't hold my breath, but it'd be nice.

HA! So in order to deflect away from the real issues raised you are now attempting to place a personal spin. Just how did I "lie about you" on this thread, Granite?

 

[PKevman]

You avoided the questions and you already lied about me and what I've posted on this thread so I'd say your concept of "honesty" is fairly subjective.

Actually my concept of honesty is OBjective. Let your yes be yes and your no be no, Granite. That is my concept of honesty. So do you want to share HOW I have "lied about you"?

 

[Granite]

HA! So in order to deflect away from the real issues raised you are now attempting to place a personal spin. Just how did I "lie about you" on this thread, Granite?

Check what you said in post 23.

Now, you'll do either one of two things here, pastor: either squirm and try to weasel out of this or just say, "Yep, my bad, that was a mistake on my part. Sorry and let's carry on."

Chair already noticed this and so did I, but either this was a falsehood or a mistake on your part.