JonahofAkron
New member
If He breaks the Law, He cannot be Messiah. End of story. He could not break any of Torah's commands.
ECT Using the Law to Determine Scriptural Truth
- Thread starter Livelystone
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If He breaks the Law, He cannot be Messiah. End of story. He could not break any of Torah's commands.
Colossians
New member
JoA,
If He breaks the Law, He cannot be Messiah.
It is the other way around: it He didn't break the law, He could not be Messiah.
For "the law is not of faith".
And so we see that you simply beg the question.
He broke the 1st commandment, and that is that. It is on the books for all to see.
When you say you are God, you break the 1st commandment. That is why He was crucified.
Your mindlessness, is mindnumbing.
If He breaks the Law, He cannot be Messiah.
It is the other way around: it He didn't break the law, He could not be Messiah.
For "the law is not of faith".
And so we see that you simply beg the question.
He broke the 1st commandment, and that is that. It is on the books for all to see.
When you say you are God, you break the 1st commandment. That is why He was crucified.
Your mindlessness, is mindnumbing.
Colossians
New member
I refer all to my thread "Understanding Christ's fulfilment of the law".
If any have any private questions to me, they can send me a private message via the private message system.
God bless and good day to all those who walk by faith, and not by the law.
If any have any private questions to me, they can send me a private message via the private message system.
God bless and good day to all those who walk by faith, and not by the law.
JonahofAkron
New member
Unless He is YHWH in the flesh....how else could you believe anything that He said? I'm assuming then, that you do not see Him as a Savior...just a good teacher?
Legalism is Believing your salvation is found in your ability to do the works. I do not believe that and would appreciate it if you didn't make that assumption.
Mockery doesn't prove your point. Please don't do it.
Krsto
Well-known member
This is a minor point but I see the following: "By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear," (in Hebrews) saying the Jews were under the Law at that time (and this was written after the cross) but soon even their Law would disappear. That happened in 70 AD when God sent the Romans in to tear down the temple and destroy the priesthood. Without a temple and a priesthood it was impossible for the Jews to keep the Law. Take tithing, for example. Since that time Jews have not tithed because they can't obey the Law of tithing since they have no temple to take it to and no priesthood to receive it.
Funny thing is many Christian pastors teach God wants Christians to tithe when God doesn't even want the Jews to tithe. If he did he wouldn't have destroyed their temple and priesthood.
I wouldn't be surprised though if livelystone and jonahofakron teach mandatory tithing.
Krsto
Well-known member
Your definition of legalism is entirely inadequate. It doesn't always have to do with someone trying to get saved. Many Pentecostal and Baptist Holiness churches are steeped in pharisaical legalism yet know quite well their scrupulous adherance to holiness standards has nothing to do with salvation. I've been there, I know how they think. I've had enough legalism to last me a lifetime, thank you very much.
JonahofAkron
New member
Ok.
graceandpeace
New member
Here is the problem...with how I see it.
There are two forms of 'law'...there is the 'letter' that kills/law of moses, and the 'spiritual law', called the law of Christ/faith, that all christians are under. We are NOT without 'law', upon salvation; we are ONLY without the 'letter form', that only had ONE purpose to kill. Those whom reject the law of Christ; reject Christ Himself.
It is defined like this:
LOVE God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself.
IF you do this; it is because God has made in you, the TRUE circumcision. IF you find you do not do this; you are not yet
heart circumcised...do a test for yourself.
There are two forms of 'law'...there is the 'letter' that kills/law of moses, and the 'spiritual law', called the law of Christ/faith, that all christians are under. We are NOT without 'law', upon salvation; we are ONLY without the 'letter form', that only had ONE purpose to kill. Those whom reject the law of Christ; reject Christ Himself.
It is defined like this:
LOVE God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself.
IF you do this; it is because God has made in you, the TRUE circumcision. IF you find you do not do this; you are not yet
heart circumcised...do a test for yourself.
Livelystone
New member
Why do the heathen rage?
Why do the heathen rage?
Well, Krsto, I already knew of the ignorance of Colossians and because of the warnings of Jesus not to cast pearls down before swine, Colossians reaction was very predictable, however, I had given you more credit. So far that is my only error!
I see that you have not addressed a single comment from my writing but instead have gone off on how Christians are not bound to the law.
If you had taken the time to read my post other than at best, a quick scan, you would have noted that I have not placed any laws on Christians for conduct nor have I bound any law to salvation and grace. Had you had the foresight and taken what I said before God, He would have confirmed it to be true, but only if you have ears that can hear what the Spirit says. Something that at this point given your remarks is highly doubtful considering the evidence of any dramatic miracles requiring a divine presence and source of power, are not witnessed by you.
What I have done is spelled out for you and everyone else how God would have you to study His Word. If you EVER have any hope of going beyond the simple milk of the Word you need to learn it!
Consider this (if you are able)
Christ the seed in Christians is their hope of glory....... Amen ? I think so!!!!!!!!
However if the seed of Christ in you does not adhere to the law of the seed there is no hope for any glory ever appearing in you, and that you can take to the bank. Without God's laws beginning to work in you there is no hope of glory for you, so I strongly suggest to you to turn from the errors of how you study the scriptures and begin to learn the deep truths of God and how the Bible lays out how to acquire Godly wisdom..
Are you so foolish that you think that God's Word cannot pass the test of His own method for how to learn knowledge as the Bible teaches it, and not how man teaches it?
My article is a "part one" in that it is the first basic and neccessary step needed for moving beyond what is taught by a powerless church that like you has as much divine power as overcooked pasta.
On the other hand those who have learned what I teach become recipients of God's power and witness miracles done to them and through them.
So you have choice Krsto, you can follow what I have laid out for you that will give you ears to hear what God says that will allow the truth of God to rest on you with signs following, or you can remain ignorant to the power of God that heals cancer and raises the dead alive.......... and yes I do have witnesses if you care to mount a worthy and worthwhile challenge to what I have just claimed.
Blessings
LS
Why do the heathen rage?
Well, Krsto, I already knew of the ignorance of Colossians and because of the warnings of Jesus not to cast pearls down before swine, Colossians reaction was very predictable, however, I had given you more credit. So far that is my only error!
I see that you have not addressed a single comment from my writing but instead have gone off on how Christians are not bound to the law.
If you had taken the time to read my post other than at best, a quick scan, you would have noted that I have not placed any laws on Christians for conduct nor have I bound any law to salvation and grace. Had you had the foresight and taken what I said before God, He would have confirmed it to be true, but only if you have ears that can hear what the Spirit says. Something that at this point given your remarks is highly doubtful considering the evidence of any dramatic miracles requiring a divine presence and source of power, are not witnessed by you.
What I have done is spelled out for you and everyone else how God would have you to study His Word. If you EVER have any hope of going beyond the simple milk of the Word you need to learn it!
Consider this (if you are able)
Christ the seed in Christians is their hope of glory....... Amen ? I think so!!!!!!!!
However if the seed of Christ in you does not adhere to the law of the seed there is no hope for any glory ever appearing in you, and that you can take to the bank. Without God's laws beginning to work in you there is no hope of glory for you, so I strongly suggest to you to turn from the errors of how you study the scriptures and begin to learn the deep truths of God and how the Bible lays out how to acquire Godly wisdom..
Are you so foolish that you think that God's Word cannot pass the test of His own method for how to learn knowledge as the Bible teaches it, and not how man teaches it?
My article is a "part one" in that it is the first basic and neccessary step needed for moving beyond what is taught by a powerless church that like you has as much divine power as overcooked pasta.
On the other hand those who have learned what I teach become recipients of God's power and witness miracles done to them and through them.
So you have choice Krsto, you can follow what I have laid out for you that will give you ears to hear what God says that will allow the truth of God to rest on you with signs following, or you can remain ignorant to the power of God that heals cancer and raises the dead alive.......... and yes I do have witnesses if you care to mount a worthy and worthwhile challenge to what I have just claimed.
Blessings
LS
Krsto
Well-known member
Well LS, you are correct, I did not read your post, but you caught my interest long enough for me to read the first part, but you must understand with me as well as anyone on TOL the probability of me reading the whole thing is inversely proportional to the length of your post. You are approaching zero my friend. We are all a bit ADD here. :chuckle:
What I read was nothing new under the sun for me. Not only have I had enough legalism to last me a lifetime I have had enough hyper-spirituality to last me a lifetime, though I must say your's is better developed than say totton linet's is.
Did you go to CC&BTC by chance?
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Livelystone
New member
I reckon the fact that I do not know what CC&BTC stands for is a giveaway that I have not beeen there.
But to be sure......... what does it stand for?
Krsto
Well-known member
If you went there you would know. You use the same faulty hermeneutic we employed there so I was just wondering if you were one of "them."
Livelystone
New member
LOL
Like James I can prove my faith with divine works (miracles) but you cannot because as James says faith without works is dead. Thus you have no works because Christ is not alive and well in your heart.... that is sad but that is the condition of the heart in you and Colossians.
Now before you start crying foul go spend some time and see how Jesus and Paul explained the presence of miracles and how it is the presence of the Holy Spirit in them that is doing them
So ya see bro it is like this......... you are missing what it takes to witness any miracles.
Maybe you could try a new school :rotfl:
LS
Krsto
Well-known member
You know nothing about me and how God works through me in miracles. For you to presume you know is, well, presumptive. I am not an immature Christian who feels a need to prove my spirituality to you or anyone else so don't go about holding it over the head of others like you do. I prefer to use the gifts of God in a godly manner, not an arrogant manner as you do.
BTW - your thread title is deceptive because from what I read it's not really about using the Law to determine spiritual truth.
Livelystone
New member
Wrong again
The title speaks well for the writing. If you would learn what is written there you too would know the difference between the truths of God and the lies of Satan designed to appear that they are the truth of God.
As far as miracles go..... Do you think James was bragging about His works proving the presence of the faith of Jesus Christ in him? What about Paul or Jesus when they spoke of miracles happening through them that were not being seen by others....... were they bragging?
Here is some news for you regarding miracles, Nobody can boast of them for they are not done by man; however, it is very rare when they appear when anything but the truth is present!
I can tell from words coming from you on this forum and the lack of discernment that you are showing on this thread that you are missing significant amounts of truth concerning the seven "necessary to know" foundational pieces of knowledge before miracles can flow from someone.
Therefore it is the sin of unbelief in the truth that Paul warns you of and is a direct result of your lack of knowledge that makes the possibility of miracles being done through you extremely rare........ Not impossible mind you but if they are happening around and through you, then congratulations, because you must be chosen for something that has not yet happened.
However the odds of them appearing in your present state are pretty slim to say the least.
LS
Krsto
Well-known member
Jesus and the apostles pointed to miracles as a sign God was attesting to the Gospel they were preaching. As Jesus said, anyone bearing witness of himself is not true. You are bearing witness of yourself because you are bragging about the miracles you do rather than just demonstrate them. Fact is, you can't demonstrate them on a debate forum, only talk about them. Jesus and Paul reminded the people of the miracles they actually witnessed as happening through them as a sign that God was backing up their message. They didn't mention them to people who had not already seen them. When you are preaching the Gospel and God backs you up with miracles then you can "brag" about them (or simply point them out, if even you need to say anything - why not just let the signs speak for themselves?). But for you to come on a debate forum and claim the miracles God does through you validates your theology is just plain hooey. I know of all sorts of miracle working ministers whos theology was all over the map, quite often heretical. Would God give his power to a "heretic." Yes, he does it all the time because he is not as interested in man's views of orthodoxy as man tends to be. He's quite lenient in that regard and is willing to ignore your poor theology, if you happen to have any, in order to show his power to get people saved. If you are not using God's gifts to bless and get people saved then you are misusing the gifts of God. Actually, make that abusing the gifts of God.
You are the typical Christian to whom God gives gifts of the Spirit and it has gone to your head yet God has not pulled the gifts because "the gifts of God are without repentence." You have assumed Christian maturity has been attained but please know Christian maturity and even spirituality is not determined by manifestations of the Spirit, but by the fruit of the Spirit, which has to do with inner character, not outward signs and wonders.
I really don't care if you think I don't know the 7 secrets. You are preaching a form of gnosticism. If you really did know 7 secrets to enable miracle working power you could write a book on it and make millions. Why waste your time on TOL?
God bless,
Krsto
Livelystone
New member
Krsto
You say you are not babe in Christ but then why are you so immature about the things of God?
Just so you understand me (even if it is only a little) if I had anything to brag about concerning when and how miracles appear, we would not be having this conversation because I would be at a hospital somewhere emptying their beds and putting doctors out of work ........ and as far as writing a book to make millions, why would I want to go to all that trouble when I could just miracle whip up a winning lottery number. For sure you are the egotist between us
You probably have a much nicer personal history than I do and if there is anything that entitles me more than you is because I fulfill the words of Paul when he said that it would be the base and foolish things of the world that would confound the wisdom of the wise.
However I have been taught by God while you have taught by some clergy member or theological professor...... and that my friend is why "clergy associated people" get so ruffled when a person who says that 90% of what they teach is lies and is allowed to witness miracles when they are not..... even if it just a small number.
I hear claims of miracles but other than in new ministries where the people listening are not already filled with false doctrines, the vast majority of the time, when checked out they turn out to be false claims. I just had a friend come back from remote areas of SA who cannot figure out why the priest they sent has witnessed miracles in the local native population but cannot help his wife with cancer. The truth is the simple reason that the local natives do not have all her beliefs in false doctrines that her husband has taught her. But go back there after a couple of years of them being taught from an american missionary and I guarantee that you will no longer see any miracles happening there
The prophecy of the OT temple shows why that is so and if you would learn about the prophetic return of the jews from Babylon and how for the first time they 'heard the law and understood the words", you would know why Jesus tells us to learn the law even though He is the end of it
I do not have a "miracle ministry" but what I do have that you do not is considerable more knowledge about the seven foundational doctrines of He.6 1,2 that has nothing to do with gnosticism, just the simple foundational truths of the doctrines of Christ that you are supposed to know but do not.
Learn them and I am quite confident that in time you too will witness miracles as the light of truth displaces the darkness of the lies you have fallen for and believe in.
Looking at your post history reveals that other than knowing the identity of Jesus and that he died for our sins along with a couple of things about Pentecost, is about the extent of your knowledge of the truth. You learning the little bit of knowledge that I shared in the OP would open the door to a lot more truth than what you currently have........ And the beginning of whole new path of enlightenment for you.
Don't want to read it and continue on the same path that is not going to end well for you, keep up the insults and it will happen.
On the other hand if you read it and come up with some viable questions, I will burn the midnight oil for you.
Blessings
LS
Krsto
Well-known member
First you come on TOL vaunting some "deep things of God" that you know and others don't, you brag about how God cures cancer and raises the dead through you and that validates your theology, and now you are saying you know more of the Word of God than I do regarding the elemental doctrines of Heb. 6 and assume I got what I do know from professors and clergy. You also claim you are entitled to more from God because you are more base and foolish.
All that adds up to one thing: you are not full of God but full of yourself. It's plain to everyone who listens to you but you will not be able to see it until you humble yourself before God.
More presumption coming from you because you have no idea of what I know and understand yet you think you do based on what I have posted on TOL, as if that is the sum total of what I understand. Really dude, and you complain that I insult you. Get over yourself already. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to what I understand but hey if you see me teaching false doctrine please show me how. I'm always eager to be corrected.
At this point I don't see that you have anything to offer me but if you feel you do you can burn the midnight oil in summarizing what you believe. If you can't boil each point down to a single sentence and feel you need to ramble on and on to get your point across you need to work on your communication skills because you are never going to get an audience, especially here on TOL. You aren't the first to come on here with some book you have written that you think is the cat's meow and you certainly won't be the last. If you want to gain an audience you need to work harder than just control A, control C, control V a book you wrote before. Otherwise you will be preaching to the wind. Notice how many people have responded to your thread? Two. That should tell you something.
God bless,
Krsto
Krsto
Well-known member
BTW LS, I didn't say your teaching about the elementary doctrines of Heb. 6 means you are teaching gnosticism. What I mean by what I said is that gnosticism always stresses acquiring knowledge to attain spiritual goals that others can not attain to. You are the classic just-know-this-and-God-will-do-miracles teacher.
Been there, done that.
Been there, done that.
Correction .....
The law was given to Moses and the people before a tabernacle/temple was in existence.