Unless You Believe That I Am "HE" (GOD) You Will Die In Your Sins, John 8:24

[Robert Pate]

Consider that any power Jesus Christ had was given to him by his God. The express image of God is a spirit being. This is the son God used to create everything. Jesus is the body mentioned in Heb 10:5, the express image needed a body to dwell in so that he could bring light into the world. This spirit spoke and worked in Jesus to enlighten us as to God's will. This express image is a form of God, yet he is not the most high God. The Father is the only true God just as Jesus tells you in John 17:3.

I believe that the Father was alone before he created his express image. He was pleased that his spirit son had his fullness. However the son is in subjection to his Father. The true son, the son of man, came down from heaven. Jesus was born, Christ was sent. Jesus became the Christ at his anointing, remember the Dove, that is when he received the power of the true son. Acts 10:38.

God can not die, however his flesh son could. God was not on the cross, Jesus was the Lamb. Scripture is clear that there is only one true God and Jesus went to his God. That should tell you something.

Peace Robert

Jesus Christ was co-creator with God, Colossians 1:16, 17.

Only God can turn water into wine, heal the sick, walk on water, still a storm, feed 5000, raise the dead.

We have every reason to believe that in Jesus "dwells all the fulness of the Godhead".

"Unless you believe that I am HE (God) you will die in your sins".

 

[KingdomRose]

No... It has nothing to do with one verse only. Its the entirety of scripture. We don't base doctrine on just single verses.


Omnipotence means all powerful. Yes, Jesus had all authority. He and God the Father both had all authority.


Again, we should not base doctrine on a single verse, but on the entirety of scripture.

For example 1 Chron. 28:9 says of God that He "searches all hearts and understands all the imaginations of the thoughts." . Compare to Jesus saying ""And all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts" (Rev. 2:23). Jesus was omniscient... all knowing. Peter recognized the omniscience of Jesus by saying "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee" (John 21:17).



Sadly you have been convinced by heretical teaching rather than by God's Word.

BeDuhn rejects many translation TEAMS and inserts his beliefs into scripture... all the while claiming he is looking at this from a blank slate view.

Lets look at how various teams of translators show Heb. 1:8
New International Version
"Your throne, O God,

New Living Translation
"Your throne, O God,

English Standard Version
“Your throne, O God

Berean Study Bible
"Your throne, O God

Berean Literal Bible
"Your throne, O God

New American Standard Bible
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD,

King James Bible
Thy throne, O God

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Your throne, God,

International Standard Version
"Your throne, O God,

NET Bible
"Your throne, O God,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Your throne, oh God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Your throne, O God,

New American Standard 1977
“THY THRONE, O GOD,

Jubilee Bible 2000
Thy throne, O God

Young's Literal Translation
'Thy throne, O God,

ETC.... ETC,,,,, Other translations are the same. If you wish, you can find out the scholarly credentials of the translators on each.

Only the JW Bible is different (Who are the translators? Will they tell us) says "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne...
The reason the JW Bible is different because they inject their doctrine to fit scripture...... rather than fit the doctrine to God's Word.

Yes you do base doctrine on single verses. And when you are asked to explain OTHER verses, you decline. You just continue throwing disparaging remarks at the poster and/or their particular church.

How could Jesus have AS MUCH authority as God the Father, when it was the Father who GAVE Jesus the authority that Jesus had? (If He GAVE it to Jesus, He could surely take it back if He so chose.) What is written in Chronicles and Peter's statements do not show that Jesus was equal to his Father, God. It merely confirms the point that the Father GAVE Jesus much power and authority, though not as much as the Father has...because the Father is the SOURCE of all power.

Jesus himself said that only the Father knows the exact day and hour that Jesus will come back in Kingdom power. Only the Father.

"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Mark 13:32, NASB)

How can you say that BeDuhn "inserts his beliefs" into his writings. I haven't seen that at all. He doesn't "reject" teams of translators. He just calls a spade a spade. Every team---even the NWT team---lets their biases show....with the NWT, it's replacing the name of Jehovah into the New Testament where it doesn't appear in most Bibles. He calls that team on it, too. So you are very unfair to find fault with BeDuhn's work.

I have reasoned concerning Heb.1:8 and yet you do not discuss my reasoning. I'd appreciate it if you would. That is what "discussion" means---hearing each other out and then commenting on what he said.

 

[KingdomRose]

Over..... and over... and over in scripture; both in OT and NT we see that Jesus is God.

We do not. It is plain as day to anyone without prior brainwashing that the only true God is Jesus' Father, Jehovah.

To his Father Jesus said: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3)

Jesus said that he could do nothing without his God and Father telling him what to do and say.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19, NASB)

How can Jesus be God when he has to LEARN from God?

Then he says that Jehovah is "my God," in several places in the Scriptures, and not just while he was on Earth.

"I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." (John 20:17, NASB)

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will not go out from it anymore, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)


It has to be as clear as glass that Jesus subjugates himself to "his God," whom he says is the Father. He does not claim to be God or equal to God. The only scriptures you can use for your erroneous views are scriptures that can be translated in more than one way, and your way does not always coincide with other scriptures.

 

[meshak]

I have reasoned concerning Heb.1:8 and yet you do not discuss my reasoning. I'd appreciate it if you would. That is what "discussion" means---hearing each other out and then commenting on what he said.

yes. welcome back.

 

[KingdomRose]

My Bible says... "BY HIM"

"For BY HIM were all things created" Colossians 1:16.

Jesus is the second person of the Godhead. We have been created in his image, Genesis 1:26.

Neither of those scriptures says that Jesus is "the second person of the Godhead," though he was undoubtedly the heavenly person that Jehovah was speaking to in Genesis 1:26.

 

[KingdomRose]

Again, a matter of translation eh? There are some translations that say that "all things were created in him" and a few that do say "Through him", so its a grammatical issue and contextual one, however that's 'nuanced' in the Greek.

Looks like a toss up of "by", "through" or "in".

Still Jesus is the Son of God, the representative and agent of God, his anointed servant.

Bible Gateway list of translations of this verse here.

No argument there. Still, nowhere is there an indication that Jesus was or is God or equal to God.

 

[KingdomRose]

Jesus Christ was co-creator with God, Colossians 1:16, 17.

Only God can turn water into wine, heal the sick, walk on water, still a storm, feed 5000, raise the dead.

We have every reason to believe that in Jesus "dwells all the fulness of the Godhead".

"Unless you believe that I am HE (God) you will die in your sins".

You are pulling a fast one there. The whole passage there can be read without seeing any indication that Jesus meant that people must believe that he is God!

(1) "Godhead" is a lousy translation of a Greek word that other versions of the Bible translate as "Diety," "Godship," "Divine nature," and other words. "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him." (Colossians 1:19, NASB) How could all the fullness of God's Being dwell in the Son? Because the Son willingly adopted every good trait from his Father, always doing the things pleasing to Him. He watched and learned from the Father. That is how. (John 5:19,30; John 7:16; John 8:28,29)

(2) Yes, only God has the power to do all the miracles you mention. That power He GAVE to His Son. God, Jehovah, the Father---He is always the SOURCE of the power that Jesus had, and Jesus loudly proclaimed that very thing.

 

[keypurr]

Jesus Christ was co-creator with God, Colossians 1:16, 17.



Only God can turn water into wine, heal the sick, walk on water, still a storm, feed 5000, raise the dead.



We have every reason to believe that in Jesus "dwells all the fulness of the Godhead".



"Unless you believe that I am HE (God) you will die in your sins".

Nope, you missed the part where Christ said all power was GIVEN to him. The Son was always in subjection to his Father. The Father is greater. Only the Father is the true God. Only the Father is uncreated.

And (God) is not written in the verse in question, that is your assumption which is wrong.

 

[Bright Raven]

Nope, you missed the part where Christ said all power was GIVEN to him. The Son was always in subjection to his Father. The Father is greater. Only the Father is the true God. Only the Father is uncreated.

And (God) is not written in the verse in question, that is your assumption which is wrong.

Wrong! The Holy Spirit is God.

Acts 5:3-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Was Peter mistaken? Is scripture in error?

 

[6days]

You just continue throwing disparaging remarks at the poster ....It is plain as day to anyone without prior brainwashing...

*that the only true God is Jesus' Father, Jehovah.

There is only one true God. And He alone forgives sin.*

To his Father Jesus said: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3)

Jesus said that he could do nothing without his God and Father telling him what to do and say.
"Truly, truly, I say to you,*the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19, NASB)

Yes.... there is one true God!

"You must not have any other god but me."*EX. 20:3

How can Jesus be God when he has to LEARN from God?

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" Jn. 1:14

Then he says that Jehovah is "my God," in several places in the Scriptures, and not just while he was on Earth.
"I ascend to my Father and your Father, and*my God*and your God." (John 20:17, NASB)

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of*my God, and he will not go out from it anymore, and I will write on him the name of*my God, and the name of the city of*my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from*my God, and my new name." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)

It has to be as clear as glass that Jesus subjugates himself to "his God," whom he says is the Father.

Of course!!*

John 1 and other scripture tells us that our Creator became flesh. He took on human form. That human was not "a god".... He is the Jehovah Creator God...worthy of worship and praise.

 

[Robert Pate]

Again, a matter of translation eh? There are some translations that say that "all things were created in him" and a few that do say "Through him", so its a grammatical issue and contextual one, however that's 'nuanced' in the Greek.

Looks like a toss up of "by", "through" or "in".

Still Jesus is the Son of God, the representative and agent of God, his anointed servant.

Bible Gateway list of translations of this verse here.

Why did Jesus say, "Unless you believe that I am HE you will die in your sins?" Do you believe that the "HE" is just the representative agent of God?

 

[keypurr]

Why did Jesus say, "Unless you believe that I am HE you will die in your sins?" Do you believe that the "HE" is just the representative agent of God?

Believe that the son of God came in the flesh. God sent his son, not himself. Now you need to understand how the son of man became flesh. What was he/it before it became flesh. See Hebrews 1.

 

[Bright Raven]

Believe that the son of God came in the flesh. God sent his son, not himself. Now you need to understand how the son of man became flesh. What was he/it before it became flesh. See Hebrews 1.

You have it all right except in the wrong context.

 

[Robert Pate]

Believe that the son of God came in the flesh. God sent his son, not himself. Now you need to understand how the son of man became flesh. What was he/it before it became flesh. See Hebrews 1.

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God" John 1:1.

No one can really understand the trinity. So, until someone comes up with a better explanation than John, I will continue to believe that Jesus who is the WORD, was God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Believe that the son of God came in the flesh. God sent his son, not himself. Now you need to understand how the son of man became flesh. What was he/it before it became flesh. See Hebrews 1.

Fancy speaking about Jesus as "it"

Where ARE you?

 

[KingdomRose]

Why did Jesus say, "Unless you believe that I am HE you will die in your sins?" Do you believe that the "HE" is just the representative agent of God?

YE-ES!

That's what the Scripture says. Jesus is the SON OF GOD, and he is the image of God...the one to "explain Him." (John 1:18; Colossians 1:15) He is also the "Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." Notice: the Lamb OF God, not God. (John 1:29)

 

[KingdomRose]

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God" John 1:1.

No one can really understand the trinity. So, until someone comes up with a better explanation than John, I will continue to believe that Jesus who is the WORD, was God.

John 1:1 says: "The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was DIVINE." (James Moffatt Translation)

That is the true meaning of the verse. Not that Jesus/the Logos was God, but that he was an important, powerful person, of or relating to, or proceeding directly FROM God.

And you're right....no one can understand the smoke-and-mirrors Trinity. God gave us the Bible so that we could understand things about Him. He wouldn't confuse us by calling Himself a total mystery that we can't understand! You hang your belief on one verse--John 1:1! A pity, because it does not mean what you say it means. (See above.)


:ha: :loser:

 

[Krsto]

There are many scriptures that say "BY HIM" or made "BY HIM", here are just a couple.

"All things were MADE BY HIM; and without him was not anything made that was made" John 1:3.

"He was in the world, and the world was MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not" John 1:10.

The Forum Bible is not correct.

Same Greek word: "dia". You don't need to rely on translations when you can just look in a dictionary and get all the possible definitions then figure out which one makes sense in context. Also, the ones in John show all things were created "through" the Logos, the Plan of God. IOW, to put that in our vernacular, all things were made in accordance with the Plan of God.

 

[Krsto]

Over..... and over... and over in scripture; both in OT and NT we see that Jesus is God.

Of course, but the question is HOW or IN WHAT WAY is Jesus "God".

 

[Krsto]

God the Father and Son are one because.....they have the same attributes.*

Except that they don't.

Jesus is omnipotent
He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18

He was GIVEN all authority. Someone given authority didn't have it to begin with.

Jesus is omnipresent
"Where 2 or 3...I am there"*Matt. 18:20

Given that ability by God. "I can do NOTHING of myself." Being present in a few billion places at the same time is not the same as filling heaven and earth like our omnipresent God.

Jesus is omniscient.
John 1:48-50*Jesus knew where Nathaniel was.

By your logic prophets would be omniscient. Jesus was not omniscient because there was something he didn't know, namely the time of his return.

Jesus is called God.
"Of the Son he(God the Father) says, "Thy throne oh God...""*Heb. 1:8

A term that is used of human representatives of God, as it is here.

And,*
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."*John 1:1
So the Word WAS GOD...... then compare to v14... the Word became human

The Logos, the Plan of God, became a person. Jesus IS the Plan of God.

Jesus is also called 'Lord'.*Matt. 22:43-45

So are a lot of other humans in the bible.

Jesus is the 'King of kings and Lord of lords'.*Rev. 19:16

Delegated authority. "I can do NOTHING of myself."

Jesus receives worship from angels and humans
.."Let all the angels of God worship Him"*Heb. 1:6
And...
"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of those who are in Heaven, and those on earth, and under the earth."
Phil. 2:10

Amazing isn't it, that God would give this to a man.

Jesus claimed to be equal to his father.
"I and the Father are one."*John 10:30

Being one is not the same as being equal.

Jesus is the mighty God and the everlasting Father*Is.9:6

But not the Almighty God. "Everlasting Father" is better translated "father of futurity."

Jesus is the Creator.*Col. 1:16

All things were created through Jesus, not Jesus as the one doing the creating.

Jesus forgives sin*Luke 7:48

Delegated authority. "I can do NOTHING of myself."

If you think that would be helpful, there may be a cult that would embrace you.*

So you just ignore those scriptures because a cult uses them to refute your arguments. Way to be intellectually honest. :mmph: