Universal Minimum Income

PureX

Well-known member
This seems to be a major problem with this plan. How would you rein in inflation?
I don't think inflation would be much of a problem. The minimum income would be spent on essentials, just as a minimal income is, now. There would be fewer workers willing to work for peanuts, and so some production costs would increase. But the truth is that labor only accounts for a small percentage of most production, anyway. And another truth is that we produce a huge glut of products and services that we don't really need or even want. The higher costs would eliminate some of that. And it would never be missed.
 

patrick jane

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It wouldn't work in the U.S. at 1.90u.s. they could buy one can of potted meat@ .50, a small box of crackers .75 and one .25 pack of cool-aid,one piece of fruit @.30=1.80per day U.S.,,,leaving .10 per day times 30 days and you have a bag of sugar for the cool-aid.





So because of the state of economy in the U.S. it would equal extreme poverty,while in other nations it is a comparable lifestyle to the same amount of good's we spend thousands of dollars on. Imagine .10 a gallon gas,penny loaves of bread and 4.00 light bills and at a 1.90 a day with a budget and one could save a fair retirement.

At the end the U.S. economy needs to,has to crumble. And while it is crumbling the economies in the other nations would need to rise to the same level ours crumbles to so that we pay the same price for the same can of potted meat as the rest of the world.

One can of potted meat for a whole day ? You really like potted meat. We can do that now with dollar stores, Sam's, Wal Mart etc. it doesn't pay for the cost of production with your plan. It can't wok
 

kmoney

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Hall of Fame
I don't think inflation would be much of a problem. The minimum income would be spent on essentials, just as a minimal income is, now.
I think that depends on how exactly this plan would be carried out. I don't think I'm fully understanding. If someone makes $24,000 already do they get an additional $24k? Or do they get $0 because they already make the minimum? If they don't get anything then you might be right, it won't have a big impact. But if this is going to be given to people no matter what then I do think there could be an impact. And it wouldn't just be spent on the basics. Since Trad was saying all other social programs (except universal healthcare and free schooling) would be cut out I'm thinking he meant everyone would get this money, regardless of what they currently make.

There would be fewer workers willing to work for peanuts, and so some production costs would increase. But the truth is that labor only accounts for a small percentage of most production, anyway.
Cite?

There is a difference between this proposal and current minimum wage laws though. Currently the businesses have to bear the cost of the min wage which can lead to increased costs. In this proposal it would be the gov't, so businesses are shielded. They wouldn't have that basis for increasing costs.

And another truth is that we produce a huge glut of products and services that we don't really need or even want. The higher costs would eliminate some of that. And it would never be missed.
Like what? If a company is making a product then there must be some demand for it.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
I think that depends on how exactly this plan would be carried out. I don't think I'm fully understanding. If someone makes $24,000 already do they get an additional $24k? Or do they get $0 because they already make the minimum? If they don't get anything then you might be right, it won't have a big impact. But if this is going to be given to people no matter what then I do think there could be an impact. And it wouldn't just be spent on the basics. Since Trad was saying all other social programs (except universal healthcare and free schooling) would be cut out I'm thinking he meant everyone would get this money, regardless of what they currently make.


Cite?

There is a difference between this proposal and current minimum wage laws though. Currently the businesses have to bear the cost of the min wage which can lead to increased costs. In this proposal it would be the gov't, so businesses are shielded. They wouldn't have that basis for increasing costs.


Like what? If a company is making a product then there must be some demand for it.

Just where do you think the government gets its money?
 

PureX

Well-known member
I think that depends on how exactly this plan would be carried out. I don't think I'm fully understanding. If someone makes $24,000 already do they get an additional $24k?
That was the Trad's proposal. But I think that's unworkably excessive, and unnecessary. I would propose a guaranteed minimum survival income of say 24K/year going to anyone who earns less than 50k a year. That way the least yearly income would be 24K, but if one is willing to work, even part time and/or for a lower wage, they can keep what they earn and it won't cut off their guaranteed minimum income. Thus, encouraging people to work to whatever degree they are willing and able.

After the 50K level of income is reached, however, the guaranteed minimum income could be discontinued, and a moderate progressive income tax would begin. Very low for 50K to 75K. A little higher for 75K to 100K, and so on. Up to a very high tax rate for the million+ incomes.

The goal would be to guarantee a minimum survival income, and still allow people to keep whatever they can earn beyond it: up to a point. After that, we'd have to start paying income taxes. And those taxes will become quite high for the really big earners.
Or do they get $0 because they already make the minimum? If they don't get anything then you might be right, it won't have a big impact. But if this is going to be given to people no matter what then I do think there could be an impact. And it wouldn't just be spent on the basics. Since Trad was saying all other social programs (except universal healthcare and free schooling) would be cut out I'm thinking he meant everyone would get this money, regardless of what they currently make.
Yes, he did. But I think that's unnecessarily excessive. And I agree that it would probably drive up prices to have that much disposable income in everyone's pockets.
There is a difference between this proposal and current minimum wage laws though. Currently the businesses have to bear the cost of the min wage which can lead to increased costs. In this proposal it would be the gov't, so businesses are shielded. They wouldn't have that basis for increasing costs.
I agree. If a person has a guaranteed survival income, and he doesn't lose that income for working part time, or for a small wage, then business may find this system provides them more cheap labor, instead of less.
Like what? If a company is making a product then there must be some demand for it.
This is actually a little bit different issue, I think. If paying workers a survivable wage really does cause the products they are producing to be 'too expensive', then the product is not economically viable, and we should not produce it. Because the whole point of economic enterprise is to serve the well being of the people engaged in the enterprise. If the enterprise can't do that, then it should not be engaged in.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Taxes, debt. They could just print it. :greedy:
Which is exactly why there are bills like this:
305777230e62eabfe763877247d1de27-orig

Which are worth virtually nothing in the rest of the world.
 

kmoney

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That was the Trad's proposal. But I think that's unworkably excessive, and unnecessary. I would propose a guaranteed minimum survival income of say 24K/year going to anyone who earns less than 50k a year. That way the least yearly income would be 24K, but if one is willing to work, even part time and/or for a lower wage, they can keep what they earn and it won't cut off their guaranteed minimum income. Thus, encouraging people to work to whatever degree they are willing and able.

After the 50K level of income is reached, however, the guaranteed minimum income could be discontinued, and a moderate progressive income tax would begin. Very low for 50K to 75K. A little higher for 75K to 100K, and so on. Up to a very high tax rate for the million+ incomes.

The goal would be to guarantee a minimum survival income, and still allow people to keep whatever they can earn beyond it: up to a point. After that, we'd have to start paying income taxes. And those taxes will become quite high for the really big earners.

I'm not sure I follow.
Let's say someone makes $49k. Are you saying they'd make that plus get $24k from the gov't and would then have $73k income?
 

PureX

Well-known member
I'm not sure I follow.
Let's say someone makes $49k. Are you saying they'd make that plus get $24k from the gov't and would then have $73k income?
It probably would make more sense to gradually cut back on the guaranteed minimum income as one moves from about 35K to 50K.

If I earn nothing on my own, I will receive the full guaranteed minimum income of 25K (I'm rounding up).

Let's say I earn 10K on my own this year. I would still receive the whole 25K guaranteed minimum income (GMI). So my income this year is then 35K. I am rewarded for earning something, by being able to keep it without a GMI penalty, or paying income tax (income tax does not begin until I reach 50K).

Let's say I earn 20K on my own this year. I would then receive 20K of my GMI for a total of 40K income this year. And if I earn 30K on my own, I receive 15K of my GMI totaling 45K. And if I earn 40K on my own, I receive 10k of my GMI totaling 50K income this year. And if I earn 50K on my own, I no longer receive the GMI.

This way I am rewarded for earning whatever amount I can earn beyond the GMI. Yet I am guaranteed the 25K even if I can earn nothing on my own.

The real flaw in our welfare system, now, is that we punish people for trying to earn whatever money they can, by immediately cutting them off. Yet we do so for their earning amounts that they can't possibly live on. So we create welfare dependency by punishing people for trying to work.
 

Traditio

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If someone makes $24,000 already do they get an additional $24k?

Yes. But this would be counterbalanced by very high tax rates on all income, say, over $30,000 per individual.

With respect to inflation, I don't really see this as a problem. Since it would be funded by taxation, it wouldn't be a direct cost to businesses. If anything, their immediate costs would probably go down if coupled with the abolition of minimum wage.

The millionaire can get $24,000...and then promptly pay multiples more than that.
 

Traditio

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This seems to be a major problem with this plan. How would you rein in inflation?

1. Tie the monetary amount to inflation.
2. Only permit (at least certain) businesses (and all corporations) to adjust their prices once per year, before the next year's minimum income is to be adjusted. I have in mind the following scheme:

A. Businesses report how much they intend to raise prices.
B. Government adjusts universal minimum income and taxes accordingly.
C. Businesses then raise their prices, and cannot do so again until the next year.

If any "essential" private industries fail, the government can take over.
 

aikido7

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The Jews relied on their own religion to help keep a structural safety net in their society.

And it worked.

And Jesus merely pushed the envelope further.
 

kmoney

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Hall of Fame
1. Tie the monetary amount to inflation.
2. Only permit (at least certain) businesses (and all corporations) to adjust their prices once per year, before the next year's minimum income is to be adjusted. I have in mind the following scheme:

A. Businesses report how much they intend to raise prices.
B. Government adjusts universal minimum income and taxes accordingly.
C. Businesses then raise their prices, and cannot do so again until the next year.

If any "essential" private industries fail, the government can take over.

See, here's where you start to lose me (not that I was completely with your plan before). It starts with minimum income. Then it's control over prices to help with inflation. Then it's taking over industries if needed. More and more control. And every business reporting prices to the gov't would be a nightmare.


What if the minimum income can only be used for certain things? :idunno:
 

kmoney

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Hall of Fame
Yes. But this would be counterbalanced by very high tax rates on all income, say, over $30,000 per individual.

With respect to inflation, I don't really see this as a problem. Since it would be funded by taxation, it wouldn't be a direct cost to businesses. If anything, their immediate costs would probably go down if coupled with the abolition of minimum wage.

The millionaire can get $24,000...and then promptly pay multiples more than that.

I agree that the min income not being a burden to the business would help.
 

aCultureWarrior

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LIFETIME MEMBER
There is a twist in how a segment of Seattle workers are responding to the city's new $15 minimum wage: they are asking to work fewer hours. They don't want to earn enough to cut into their public assistance. Fox News has reported:


Seattle's $15 minimum wage law is supposed to lift workers out of poverty and move them off public assistance. But there may be a hitch in the plan.


Evidence is surfacing that some workers are asking their bosses for fewer hours as their wages rise – in a bid to keep overall income down so they don’t lose public subsidies for things like food, child care and rent.


Full Life Care, a home nursing nonprofit, told KIRO-TV in Seattle that several workers want to work less.


“If they cut down their hours to stay on those subsidies because the $15 per hour minimum wage didn’t actually help get them out of poverty, all you’ve done is put a burden on the business and given false hope to a lot of people,” said Jason Rantz, host of the Jason Rantz show on 97.3 KIRO-FM.

The minimum wage turns out to be a lose-lose for all too many people and businesses.
- See more at: http://iwf.org/blog/2797717/Minimum...to-Have-Their-Hours-Cut-#sthash.6wxVq2Ui.dpuf

Socialists...
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Is Trad still trying to pose as a Trump supporter? The plan is to have black Americans dislike Trump by association with himself.
 
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