Under Law or Under Grace?

[Robert Pate]

To be under the law is to be under condemnation. Those that are under the law are NOT under grace. The words "law" and "religion" basically mean the same thing. Law or religion requires that a person must do something, believe something or become something in order to be saved. If you believe that you must do something, believe something or become something, then you are under the law and will be judged by the law and condemned. Paul wrote,

"There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Jesus Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ has made me free from the law of sin and death" Romans 8:1, 2.

The flesh is law or religion. It is what we do. Any religious thing that we do is law and religion. The Spirit is what Christ has done, it is the Gospel.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh (law and religion) God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" Romans 8:3.

The Galatians were trying to be justified by the works of the law and religion. They were observing holy days and Jewish customs. This is why Paul said to them, "You observe days and months and times and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain" Galatians 4:10, 11. They were reverting back to their old religious ways that were under the law.

Religion, whether it be the Calvinist religion, the Catholic religion or whatever religion is of the flesh and is under the law. Religion is man centered because it is about them and what they do and what they have become. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ.

What does it mean to walk after the Spirit? To walk after the Spirit is to walk and live in the Gospel. In the Gospel Jesus has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled a world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. In the Gospel, Jesus in our name and on our behalf has offered to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law. In the Gospel, Jesus in our name and on our behalf has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

BECAUSE OF THE DOING AND THE DYING OF JESUS WE STAND BEFORE GOD AS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, COLOSSIANS 2:10.

This is what it means to walk in the Spirit. It also means that we have ceased from our own works (law and religion) and have entered into his rest. If you have not entered into his rest and are resting in you own works and religion then you are under the law. The saved are resting in the work and the person of Jesus Christ, plus nothing.

"For he that has entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his" Hebrews 4:10.

 

[jamie]

For the law of the Spirit

What is the law of the Spirit that freed Paul from the law of sin and death?

 

[Jacob]

Shalom.

If you obey God's Law or God's law (are these the same?) are you under condemnation?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Robert Pate]

Shalom.

If you obey God's Law or God's law (are these the same?) are you under condemnation?

Shalom.

Jacob

No one can obey God's law. It is a human impossibility. The law demands that you be like Jesus Christ. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

 

[Jacob]

No one can obey God's law. It is a human impossibility. The law demands that you be like Jesus Christ. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Shalom.

Was Mount Sinai the first revelation of God's law? In the new covenant, in Yeshua HaMashiach, God's law is written on minds and hearts for the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Robert Pate]

Shalom.

Was Mount Sinai the first revelation of God's law? In the new covenant, in Yeshua HaMashiach, God's law is written on minds and hearts for the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Shalom.

Jacob

The reason that no one can do or keep the law is because its spiritual. It searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts without sin?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Law and Grace

Law and Grace

To be under the law is to be under condemnation. Those that are under the law are NOT under grace. The words "law" and "religion" basically mean the same thing. Law or religion requires that a person must do something, believe something or become something in order to be saved. If you believe that you must do something, believe something or become something, then you are under the law and will be judged by the law and condemned.

Strictly speaking, the gospel in and of itself condemns none. God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world. The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost. All condemnation issues from the law. Sinners are condemned already; and the final condemnation of those who have rejected the gospel is owing to the fact they remain sinners, not because the gospel has made them sinners.

Speaking largely, though, the gospel is also an administration which makes use of the law to convince sinners, to prepare them to receive the good news, to command them to repent and believe, and to pronounce judgement upon them if they will not obey.

The law signifies that part of the Divine word which consists in precepts and prohibitions, with the promise of conferring a reward upon them who obey, and a threatening of punishment to the disobedient. Every prescription of duty belongs to the law.

The gospel signifies the doctrine of grace, and of the fullest salvation in Christ Jesus, to be received of sinners chosen by God by faith. If we take the word gospel in a strict sense, as it is the form of the testament of grace, which consists of but promises, or the absolute exhibition of salvation in Christ, then the word properly prescribes nothing as duty, it requires nothing, it commands nothing, no not so much as to believe, trust, hope in the Lord, and the like. But gospel in this strict sense relates, declares, and signifies to us, what God in Christ promises, what God wills, and is about to do.

Therefore every prescription of virtues and duties, all exhortations and advice, all reproofs and threatenings, also all the promises of a reward in recompense of perfect obedience, belong to the law.

But to the gospel pertains whatever can give a sinner the hope of salvation, namely, the doctrine concerning the person, offices, states, and benefits of Jesus Christ, and all the promises wherein it is included the pardon of sins, and the annexed possession of grace and glory, to be obtained by faith in Our Lord.

This is the strictest notion of both words, law and gospel, to which we must pay attention, in any discussion of Iaw and gospel.

Spurgeon, Morning and Evening, January 25 evening:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 3:31

When the believer is adopted into the Lord's family, his relationship to old Adam and the law ceases at once; but then he is under a new rule, and a new covenant. Believer, you are God's child; it is your first duty to obey your heavenly Father. A servile spirit you have nothing to do with: you are not a slave, but a child; and now, inasmuch as you are a beloved child, you are bound to obey your Father's faintest wish, the least intimation of his will.

Does he bid you fulfil a sacred ordinance?
It is at your peril that you neglect it, for you will be disobeying your Father.

Does he command you to seek the image of Jesus? Is it not your joy to do so? Does Jesus tell you, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?
Then not because the law commands, but because your Saviour enjoins, you will labour to be perfect in holiness.

Does he bid his saints love one another?
Do it, not because the law says, "Love thy neighbour," but because Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments;" and this is the commandment that he has given unto you, "that ye love one another."

Are you told to distribute to the poor?
Do it, not because charity is a burden which you dare not shirk, but because Jesus teaches, "Give to him that asketh of thee." Does the Word say, "Love God with all your heart"?

Look at the commandment and reply, "Ah! commandment, Christ hath fulfilled thee already--I have no need, therefore, to fulfil thee for my salvation, but I rejoice to yield obedience to thee because God is my Father now and he has a claim upon me, which I would not dispute."

May the Holy Ghost make your heart obedient to the constraining power of Christ's love, that your prayer may be, "Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight."

Grace is the mother and nurse of holiness, and not the apologist of sin.​

Think about that last bit of Spurgeon.
Refrain from using grace to excuse sin.
Refrain from receiving instruction from someone beyond the bounds of that which we hold dear.

AMR

 

[Jacob]

The reason that no one can do or keep the law is because its spiritual. It searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts without sin?

Shalom.

Are you asking about if something is spiritual does it involve the thoughts, or something else (something different from this)?

God would not ask you to do something if it were not possible for you to do.

I believe that if my thoughts are not in line with, or in keeping with, what God would have for me that He will correct me and that I must, if it is necessary or if I have to, repent, confess this sin to God, confessing in confession to God, what I know to be wrong in my thinking. Sometimes I do not know, but God can help with this too or as well.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No one can obey God's law. It is a human impossibility.

Robert,

At one point in human history this was possible. Now, no longer so. That you agree no man, but Our Lord, can obey, yet go on to assign to all those in Adam an actual ability no longer possible, speaks volumes to your confusion:

And you and you alone are responsible for your salvation.

Apparently, the "impossibility" you speak to above is really not impossible, for per your view, man is not really totally unable, but merely wounded, still able to lift himself by his own bootstraps.

How I wish for a man who is not so double-minded (James 1:8). Such are the errors of the Lone Ranger who has formulated his own special views.

:AMR:

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

Strictly speaking, the gospel in and of itself condemns none. God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world. The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost. All condemnation issues from the law. Sinners are condemned already; and the final condemnation of those who have rejected the gospel is owing to the fact they remain sinners, not because the gospel has made them sinners.

Speaking largely, though, the gospel is also an administration which makes use of the law to convince sinners, to prepare them to receive the good news, to command them to repent and believe, and to pronounce judgement upon them if they will not obey.

The law signifies that part of the Divine word which consists in precepts and prohibitions, with the promise of conferring a reward upon them who obey, and a threatening of punishment to the disobedient. Every prescription of duty belongs to the law.

The gospel signifies the doctrine of grace, and of the fullest salvation in Christ Jesus, to be received of sinners chosen by God by faith. If we take the word gospel in a strict sense, as it is the form of the testament of grace, which consists of but promises, or the absolute exhibition of salvation in Christ, then the word properly prescribes nothing as duty, it requires nothing, it commands nothing, no not so much as to believe, trust, hope in the Lord, and the like. But gospel in this strict sense relates, declares, and signifies to us, what God in Christ promises, what God wills, and is about to do.

Therefore every prescription of virtues and duties, all exhortations and advice, all reproofs and threatenings, also all the promises of a reward in recompense of perfect obedience, belong to the law.

But to the gospel pertains whatever can give a sinner the hope of salvation, namely, the doctrine concerning the person, offices, states, and benefits of Jesus Christ, and all the promises wherein it is included the pardon of sins, and the annexed possession of grace and glory, to be obtained by faith in Our Lord.

This is the strictest notion of both words, law and gospel, to which we must pay attention, in any discussion of Iaw and gospel.

Spurgeon, Morning and Evening, January 25 evening:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 3:31

When the believer is adopted into the Lord's family, his relationship to old Adam and the law ceases at once; but then he is under a new rule, and a new covenant. Believer, you are God's child; it is your first duty to obey your heavenly Father. A servile spirit you have nothing to do with: you are not a slave, but a child; and now, inasmuch as you are a beloved child, you are bound to obey your Father's faintest wish, the least intimation of his will.

Does he bid you fulfil a sacred ordinance?
It is at your peril that you neglect it, for you will be disobeying your Father.

Does he command you to seek the image of Jesus? Is it not your joy to do so? Does Jesus tell you, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?
Then not because the law commands, but because your Saviour enjoins, you will labour to be perfect in holiness.

Does he bid his saints love one another?
Do it, not because the law says, "Love thy neighbour," but because Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments;" and this is the commandment that he has given unto you, "that ye love one another."

Are you told to distribute to the poor?
Do it, not because charity is a burden which you dare not shirk, but because Jesus teaches, "Give to him that asketh of thee." Does the Word say, "Love God with all your heart"?

Look at the commandment and reply, "Ah! commandment, Christ hath fulfilled thee already--I have no need, therefore, to fulfil thee for my salvation, but I rejoice to yield obedience to thee because God is my Father now and he has a claim upon me, which I would not dispute."

May the Holy Ghost make your heart obedient to the constraining power of Christ's love, that your prayer may be, "Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight."

Grace is the mother and nurse of holiness, and not the apologist of sin.​

Think about that last bit of Spurgeon.
Refrain from using grace to excuse sin.
Refrain from receiving instruction from someone beyond the bounds of that which we hold dear.

AMR

All of that and only one scripture. No doubt about it, you are very religious. There was no mention in your post about the Holy Spirit who is the Christians guide and teacher, John 16:13. Like most religionist you believe that you can please God by what you do and by what you have become. Have you ever confessed that all of your righteousness is filthy rags in the sight of God, Isaiah 64:6. I hardly think so. I find your piety totally and completely disgusting. Do you have any dependency upon Christ at all? Do you think that you are going to be able to stand before God in the judgment and profess your righteousness, which you have none of? What you need to do is profess that you are a wretched sinner in desperate need of the saving power of Jesus Christ, and accept the great free gift of salvation that God has provided for you in Jesus Christ.

 

[Robert Pate]

Shalom.

Are you asking about if something is spiritual does it involve the thoughts, or something else (something different from this)?

God would not ask you to do something if it were not possible for you to do.

I believe that if my thoughts are not in line with, or in keeping with, what God would have for me that He will correct me and that I must, if it is necessary or if I have to, repent, confess this sin to God, confessing in confession to God, what I know to be wrong in my thinking. Sometimes I do not know, but God can help with this too or as well.

Shalom.

Jacob

One of the purposes of the law is to show you that you don't measure up to God's standards. Jesus was a teacher of the law. The other purpose of the law is to reveal the righteousness of God. Jesus showed us what God is like. He was God's law incarnate in human flesh.

 

[Jacob]

One of the purposes of the law is to show you that you don't measure up to God's standards. Jesus was a teacher of the law. The other purpose of the law is to reveal the righteousness of God. Jesus showed us what God is like. He was God's law incarnate in human flesh.

Shalom.

Do you obey God?

Would you say yes about knowing God's character? What about His commands or commandments?

Are God's commands or commandments a part of His Law, or are they separate from His Law?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

All of that and only one scripture.

I did not realize that counting Scripture was your metric, Robert. Odd that is, given...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-atonement-!&p=5034971&viewfull=1#post5034971
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-atonement-!&p=5035187&viewfull=1#post5035187
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...OSOEVER-quot&p=5028731&viewfull=1#post5028731
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122760-John-Calvin-s-Nazi-God/page9&p=4920136#post4920136
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Word-of-God&p=4916030&viewfull=1#post4916030
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...by-Angelfire&p=4867095&viewfull=1#post4867095
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...eir-Religion&p=4589107&viewfull=1#post4589107

..and so on and on, all without any substantive responses from you.

If Scripture counting is the metric for you, Robert, I am far ahead of your own standard of measurement, hence, using your logic above, the religious one, must actually be yourself. Can you be more confused than you demonstrate? Better you stop posting and examine yourself. Why do you continue to respond to me if you have no intention of actually engaging? Is the pride in your desire to have the last word that compelling? Ignore me, Robert, literally, not figuratively with your vapid comebacks.

Stop being a churlish fellow, showing your ignorance, and actually engage your interlocutor with more than mere lifting of verses from their context as a pretext for your heterodoxies. For if your call for more Scripture coming from careless and voluminous Scripture citation leads to this sad state of affairs:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162

...may it be I not quote Scripture at all. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

I did not realize that counting Scripture was your metric, Robert. Odd that is, given...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-atonement-!&p=5034971&viewfull=1#post5034971
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-atonement-!&p=5035187&viewfull=1#post5035187
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...OSOEVER-quot&p=5028731&viewfull=1#post5028731
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122760-John-Calvin-s-Nazi-God/page9&p=4920136#post4920136
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Word-of-God&p=4916030&viewfull=1#post4916030
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...by-Angelfire&p=4867095&viewfull=1#post4867095
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...eir-Religion&p=4589107&viewfull=1#post4589107

..and so on and on, all without any substantive responses from you.

If Scripture counting is the metric for you, Robert, I am far ahead of your own standard of measurement, hence, using your logic above, the religious one, must actually be yourself. Can you be more confused than you demonstrate? Better you stop posting and examine yourself. Why do you continue to respond to me if you have no intention of actually engaging? Is the pride in your desire to have the last word that compelling? Ignore me, Robert, literally, not figuratively with your vapid comebacks.

Stop being a churlish fellow, showing your ignorance, and actually engage your interlocutor with more than mere lifting of verses from their context as a pretext for your heterodoxies. For if your call for more Scripture coming from careless and voluminous Scripture citation leads to this sad state of affairs:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162

...may it be I not quote Scripture at all. :AMR:

AMR

One of the favorite pastimes of the Pharisees was to sit around and try to top each other as to what the law was really saying. I don't do that. I already know in what and in whom I believe. The mere fact that you refer to yourself as "Mr. Religion" tells me a whole lot about you, and then on top of that to profess that you are a Calvinist is almost like professing that you are lost, which I believe that you are. You never say anything about what God has accomplished in his Son Jesus Christ, probably because you don't believe that he has accomplished anything in his Son Jesus Christ. Paul said that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I would strongly advise you to find a quite place and do that.

 

[Robert Pate]

Shalom.

Do you obey God?

Would you say yes about knowing God's character? What about His commands or commandments?

Are God's commands or commandments a part of His Law, or are they separate from His Law?

Shalom.

Jacob

Anything in the Bible that tells you to do something or not to do something is law. The law covers every facet of ones life. There is nothing in life that is not related to the law. Your Jewish brothers came up with over 600 laws and rules for holy living. They called it the Torah. Little did they know that that had just scratched the surface. While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the "Holy of Holies" from the top to the bottom, Matthew 28:51. This signified the end of the Old Testament covenant, the law and the Jewish religion. Christians are not required to live according to laws, rules and religion. Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Mainly faith in the work and person of Jesus Christ.

 

[beloved57]

To be under the law is to be under condemnation. Those that are under the law are NOT under grace. The words "law" and "religion" basically mean the same thing. Law or religion requires that a person must do something, believe something or become something in order to be saved. If you believe that you must do something, believe something or become something, then you are under the law and will be judged by the law and condemned. Paul wrote,

"There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Jesus Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ has made me free from the law of sin and death" Romans 8:1, 2.

The flesh is law or religion. It is what we do. Any religious thing that we do is law and religion. The Spirit is what Christ has done, it is the Gospel.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh (law and religion) God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" Romans 8:3.

The Galatians were trying to be justified by the works of the law and religion. They were observing holy days and Jewish customs. This is why Paul said to them, "You observe days and months and times and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain" Galatians 4:10, 11. They were reverting back to their old religious ways that were under the law.

Religion, whether it be the Calvinist religion, the Catholic religion or whatever religion is of the flesh and is under the law. Religion is man centered because it is about them and what they do and what they have become. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ.

What does it mean to walk after the Spirit? To walk after the Spirit is to walk and live in the Gospel. In the Gospel Jesus has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled a world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. In the Gospel, Jesus in our name and on our behalf has offered to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law. In the Gospel, Jesus in our name and on our behalf has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

BECAUSE OF THE DOING AND THE DYING OF JESUS WE STAND BEFORE GOD AS COMPLETE IN CHRIST, COLOSSIANS 2:10.

This is what it means to walk in the Spirit. It also means that we have ceased from our own works (law and religion) and have entered into his rest. If you have not entered into his rest and are resting in you own works and religion then you are under the law. The saved are resting in the work and the person of Jesus Christ, plus nothing.

"For he that has entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his" Hebrews 4:10.

You deny the Saving efficacy of Christ death, teaching that sinners He died for are still lost!

 

[Jacob]

Anything in the Bible that tells you to do something or not to do something is law. The law covers every facet of ones life. There is nothing in life that is not related to the law. Your Jewish brothers came up with over 600 laws and rules for holy living. They called it the Torah. Little did they know that that had just scratched the surface. While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the "Holy of Holies" from the top to the bottom, Matthew 28:51. This signified the end of the Old Testament covenant, the law and the Jewish religion. Christians are not required to live according to laws, rules and religion. Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Mainly faith in the work and person of Jesus Christ.

Shalom.

The Torah was written before the Commandments in the Torah were counted. There are 613 Commandments in the Torah, for all Israel to observe or obey. Have you heard of the Ten Commandments? Do you know about Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

The Commandments in the Torah are sometimes called Laws. There are 613 commandments, or laws, in the Torah.

I do not know if the veil tore when Jesus was dying. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. He came to fulfill them.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Robert Pate]

Shalom.

The Torah was written before the Commandments in the Torah were counted. There are 613 Commandments in the Torah, for all Israel to observe or obey. Have you heard of the Ten Commandments? Do you know about Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

The Commandments in the Torah are sometimes called Laws. There are 613 commandments, or laws, in the Torah.

I do not know if the veil tore when Jesus was dying. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. He came to fulfill them.

Shalom.

Jacob

His purpose was not to destroy the law. His purpose was to fulfill the law, having done that he abolished it, Ephesians 2:15. To be under the law is to be under condemnation and judgment. He abolished it because it was contrary to us, no one can keep it or do it, Colossians 2:14. I am going to say to you what Paul said to the Galatians, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the Law? Galatians 4:21. The law will damn you to hell.

 

[Jacob]

His purpose was not to destroy the law. His purpose was to fulfill the law, having done that he abolished it, Ephesians 2:15. To be under the law is to be under condemnation and judgment. He abolished it because it was contrary to us, no one can keep it or do it, Colossians 2:14. I am going to say to you what Paul said to the Galatians, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the Law? Galatians 4:21. The law will damn you to hell.

Shalom.

Jesus did not abolish the Law. He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets.

Paul himself walked orderly keeping the Law. You are simply misinterpreting the things that you are reading.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 19:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ecclesiastes 12:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Grace does not mean you are to stop keeping God's commands. It was the Mosaic laws and priesthood that was done away with.