Unable to Believe the “Foolish” Gospel

[Dougcho]

Because of what is clearly stated in the NT …
unredeemed man is NOT able to believe in Jesus
and the “foolish” Gospel due to a multitude of reasons!
(The Gospel is “foolishness” to those who are perishing, 1 Cor. 1:18)

Here are some of the best NT passages which testify to this:

Inherited sin nature
Romans 3:9-18,5:12
Galatians 3:22

Sin nature against God
Romans 8:7

Enemy of God
Colossians 1:21

Spiritually blind
2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Live in an evil world
Gal.1:4, 2 Peter 1:4

Slaves of/to sin
John 8:34, Romans 6:6

In Spiritual darkness
John 8:12,12:46
Acts 26:18

Gospel is foolishness
1 Corinthians 1:18

Problems, persecution,
worries, lure of wealth
Matthew 13:21-22

The spiritual enemy, Satan
Ephesians 2:2,6:11-12
John 10:10, 1 Peter 5:8

Satan’s army is against us
Ephesians 2:2

Under Satan’s power & control
Acts 26:18, 1 John 5:19

Deceived by Satan
Revelation 12:9

Held captive by Satan
2 Timothy 2:26

Robbed of initial faith
Matthew 13:19

If God can tell the animals how to survive …
surely, He will make sure His elect-chosen-called people will
believe in Jesus and the Gospel … and get them into heaven!
He gives us the faith necessary to believe the “foolish” Gospel.
But, not everybody gets it … only the ones He chooses.
It’s His prerogative … He created everything and owns everything.
In the OT, He says that He blesses those He chooses to bless.
We, who the Lord has caused to be born again,
should be praising and thanking Him every day! Amen.

Please, don’t be led astray by people who are deceived and
who say to themselves and others: “I made the decision to believe
in Jesus and the Gospel … and by God’s grace I was born again.”

 

[JudgeRightly]

 

[Dougcho]

Dearest R/D,
He's missing the whole point, which is ...

If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!

 

[JudgeRightly]

Dearest R/D,

Who?

He's missing the whole point, which is ...

If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!

That comes through the preaching of the gospel.

Which, again, is why it's so important to preach, so that ANYONE who hears it CAN come to Christ.

 

[Dougcho]

If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!

Yes, God opened her heart to believe what Paul was saying.
I.E. God gave her the ability to understand and believe.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, God opened her heart to believe what Paul was saying.
I.E. God gave her the ability to understand and believe.

... Through the preaching of Paul.

He didn't open her heart until she heard the words from Paul spoken.

It wasn't some effectual work on God's part.

Her heart was opened through the gospel which Paul preached.

The means of her heart being opened was the preaching of the gospel. We attribute that opening of her heart to God, not because God directly intervened, but because God, through His actions on the cross, enabled Paul to preach the gospel, which enabled Lydia to hear the gospel, understand, and believe it.

 

[Dougcho]

He didn't open her heart until she heard the words from Paul spoken.
It wasn't some effectual work on God's part.
Her heart was opened through the gospel which Paul preached.
The means of her heart being opened was the preaching of the gospel.

"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.
She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God.
The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14, NKJV)

'Tis most obvious ...
"the Lord opened her heart" (the Gospel did NOT open her heart)
... so she would be able to "heed the things spoken by Paul"

The unsaved were/are NOT able to believe the Gospel ...
because of their inherited sin nature, and because they were captives (slaves) of Satan.
Their minds were blinded, etc. etc.

How many of the unsaved were/are involved in worshiping God?
Both the Jews and Christians believed in the same Father God.
If the God-worshiper Lydia needed God's help to understand and believe, everyone does !!!

How many weeks are we going to have to keep repeating this over and over again?

Meanwhile, let's not forget that ...
"... the Word became flesh-human-Jesus ..." (John 1:14)
... where the Word was NOT Jesus (before the incarnation).

 

[JudgeRightly]

"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.
She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God.
The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14, NKJV)

Paul's speaking came first, then her heart was opened by God.

Her heart wasn't opened before Paul spoke.

She was worshipping God before Paul arrived.

All three of these things refute your beliefs, no matter how you try to spin it.

'Tis most obvious ...
"the Lord opened her heart" (the Gospel did NOT open her heart)

The Lord opened her heart through the preaching of the gospel.

... so she would be able to "heed the things spoken by Paul"

Yes, He preached, and her heart was opened.

The unsaved were/are NOT able to believe the Gospel ...

Again, Lydia was worshipping God. According to your view, the unsaved cannot do that. So something about your position is wrong.

because of their inherited sin nature, and because they were captives (slaves) of Satan.
Their minds were blinded, etc. etc.

Can the captive not acknowledge that they are captive, and desire to be freed?

Can the blind not acknowledge that they are blind, and wish to see?

How many of the unsaved were/are involved in worshiping God?

At least one, if what you believe is true, because the Bible tells us that Lydia did, BEFORE God opened her heart to understand the gospel spoken by Paul.

Both the Jews and Christians believed in the same Father God.
If the God-worshiper Lydia needed God's help to understand and believe, everyone does !!![/QUOTE

No one has said otherwise.

What we're saying is that such is not through some effectual means of regeneration on God's part.

How many weeks are we going to have to keep repeating this over and over again?

That's what I'd like to ask you.

How many times are you going to repeat your position as though it hasn't already been refuted by us?

Can you step out of your box of beliefs long enough to at least consider what I'm saying from a different perspective than "he teaches differently, therefore he must be wrong"?

Meanwhile, let's not forget that ...
"... the Word became flesh-human-Jesus ..." (John 1:14)
... where the Word was NOT Jesus (before the incarnation).

Stay on topic, sir.

 

[Dougcho]

Paul's speaking came first, then her heart was opened by God.

Excuses, excuses, and more excuses!

The point is ...
Lydia needed God to open her heart - so she could believe!
Period, and end of story ... we hope!

 

[JudgeRightly]

Excuses, excuses, and more excuses!

Throwing a tantrum isn't going to refute my argument.

The point is ...
Lydia needed God to open her heart - so she could believe!

She was already worshipping God. Hearing the gospel allowed her to believe the gospel.

Just like hearing a multiple choice question enables you to answer said question.

Period, and end of story ... we hope!

:blabla:

Stomping your foot and saying "the debate is over!" doesn't make it so, Doug.

Repeating your argument as though it hasn't just been utterly refuted multiple times isn't going to change the fact that it's been refuted.

 

[Clete]

Because of what is clearly stated in the NT …
unredeemed man is NOT able to believe in Jesus
and the “foolish” Gospel due to a multitude of reasons!
(The Gospel is “foolishness” to those who are perishing, 1 Cor. 1:18)

Here are some of the best NT passages which testify to this:

Inherited sin nature
Romans 3:9-18,5:12
Galatians 3:22

Sin nature against God
Romans 8:7

Enemy of God
Colossians 1:21

Spiritually blind
2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Live in an evil world
Gal.1:4, 2 Peter 1:4

Slaves of/to sin
John 8:34, Romans 6:6

In Spiritual darkness
John 8:12,12:46
Acts 26:18

Gospel is foolishness
1 Corinthians 1:18

Problems, persecution,
worries, lure of wealth
Matthew 13:21-22

The spiritual enemy, Satan
Ephesians 2:2,6:11-12
John 10:10, 1 Peter 5:8

Satan’s army is against us
Ephesians 2:2

Under Satan’s power & control
Acts 26:18, 1 John 5:19

Deceived by Satan
Revelation 12:9

Held captive by Satan
2 Timothy 2:26

Robbed of initial faith
Matthew 13:19

If God can tell the animals how to survive …
surely, He will make sure His elect-chosen-called people will
believe in Jesus and the Gospel … and get them into heaven!
He gives us the faith necessary to believe the “foolish” Gospel.
But, not everybody gets it … only the ones He chooses.
It’s His prerogative … He created everything and owns everything.
In the OT, He says that He blesses those He chooses to bless.
We, who the Lord has caused to be born again,
should be praising and thanking Him every day! Amen.

Please, don’t be led astray by people who are deceived and
who say to themselves and others: “I made the decision to believe
in Jesus and the Gospel … and by God’s grace I was born again.”

Have you noticed how Calvinist seem to hardly ever actually quote the verses that they cite? And what the never do is cite, much less quote, whole passages of scripture! It's pretty much always isolated verses removed from their context.

Every wonder why that is?

I believe it is because they know intuitively, they feel it when they read the verses before posting them, that the verses don't actually say what it is they want their audience to think they say.

I could dismantle Doug's post and take the passages one at a time and show how they very clearly do not teach what Doug is teaching here but it isn't necessary and hardly anyone would read it anyway. All anyone needs to do to prove Doug wrong is think through what it would mean about God if his teaching were true.

If Doug is correct, which he is NOT, then God is arbitrary rather than just and love is impossible rather than necessary. Indeed, every concept inherent to the Christian faith is rendered meaningless. Right and wrong are defined, not by some fundamental principle, but by God's arbitrary whim. If Doug is right, morality is its opposite and God is unjust, by definition.

 

[Dougcho]

The Lord opened her heart through the preaching of the gospel.

NO! ...
What percentage of people hearing the Gospel are born again?
A rather small percentage.

After God gave Lydia the necessary faith to believe ...
Paul preached the Gospel to her, and she believed.

"... that those who are called may receive
the promise of the eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9:15, NKJV)

Those are elected-chosen-called by God.
His calling is done by giving the necessary faith to believe.

 

[Clete]

NO! ...
What percentage of people hearing the Gospel are born again?
A rather small percentage.

After God gave Lydia the necessary faith to believe ...
Paul preached the Gospel to her, and she believed.

"... that those who are called may receive
the promise of the eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9:15, NKJV)

Those are elected-chosen-called by God.
His calling is done by giving the necessary faith to believe.

IF so, God is unjust!

God is good! Therefore, Calvinism is false.

 

[Dougcho]

If Doug is right, morality is its opposite and God is unjust, by definition.

God is unjust in your opinion (and that of many others),
and God is unjust by your definition (and that of many others).

This why the Gospel is presented to appear to be just ... open to everyone.
It must be presented in a positive note.

God has chosen to whom of the habitually sinful human race
He gives His mercy and grace (unmerited favor).
It is a bit unclear why He doesn't save everyone.

 

[Clete]

God is unjust in your opinion (and that of many others),

On the contrary! God is just!

That is my primary premise in the argument against your doctrine and it is one that you cannot deal with except to redefine what the word means, which is to not deal with it.

and God is unjust by your definition (and that of many others).

MY DEFINITION?

Did I miss something? Was I sleep walking when the English language definition committee came to my house to get my input on how the word "justice" was to be defined?

I don't think so!

I did not define the word justice. The word means what it means and everyone knows intuitively what it means. Everyone knows it - including you!

And that is why it crushes your doctrine into powder!

"GOD IS JUST"

Three syllables is all it takes to obliterate your entire theological construct to the point that it drives you to redefine universally understood concepts like "justice".

This why the Gospel is presented to appear to be just ... open to everyone.
It must be presented in a positive note.

As though it weren't actually just or positive?

God has chosen to whom of the habitually sinful human race
He gives His mercy and grace (unmerited favor).
It is a bit unclear why He doesn't save everyone.

You complained less than a week ago about why your doctrine has to be "tried to Calvinism" and then here you cite the "U" in the TULIP doctrines.

God is not unclear about justice, Doug! Justice is the very foundation of God's own authority! So says God Himself!

Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.​

The extent to which you believe that God is unclear about being just is the extent to which your doctrine undermines God's right to sit on the throne in Heaven and by God's own stated standard!

God is just, therefore Calvinism is false!

 

[Dougcho]

"GOD IS JUST"

Of course, He is ... but, according to His definition, not yours.

God's whole justice is >>> sin is to be punished.
The righteous will go unpunished.
The unrighteous are to be punished.
That's His justice system, like it or not.

Now, if He chooses to give some unrighteous sinners
His grace (unmerited favor), that's His prerogative.
God is God ... He owns everything, including you.
He blesses those He wishes to, and He curses those He wishes to.
He chooses to elect-choose-call some
... for His pleasure and for His purposes.

Butski, most people refuse to accept this!
Most people insist on God being who they want Him to be.

 

[Clete]

Of course, He is ... but, according to His definition, not yours.

Repeating you position does not count as a rebuttal.

I use God's definition. It is you who has changed to to mean "arbitrary", by your own words!

God's whole justice is >>> sin is to be punished.
The righteous will go unpunished.
The unrighteous are to be punished.
That's His justice system, like it or not.

Nice words but even this much is not logically compatible with you doctrine.

We agree that sin is to be punished in one way or another. The problem for you is that your doctrine teaches that God predestined sin!

​

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

And, not so incidentally, this teaching is necessary for your teaching to self-consistent.

Your version of God is the arsonist who punishes fire!

Now, if He chooses to give some unrighteous sinners
His grace (unmerited favor), that's His prerogative.

Not if He is to remain just. Justice is not arbitrary, Doug! They are opposites!

Also, this again is not consistent with your own doctrine. The statement presupposes free will; that "unrighteous sinners" are so by their own volition and thus they deserve punishment and so you presuppose MY DOCTRINE in order to make an argument for its opposite. Like I said, even you know intuitively what justice is. You cannot prevent yourself from using what you're calling "my definition". That's because it isn't my definition, it is THE definition.

God is God ... He owns everything, including you.

Quite so!

He blesses those He wishes to, and He curses those He wishes to.

I agree but He does so in accordance with His righteous character, not by arbitrary whim, as your doctrine MUST teach, as Calvin knew and articulated quite well...

​

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)​

​

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

In short, those He wishes to bless are those who respond to Him in faith, who love Him and love their neighbor.

He chooses to elect-choose-call some
... for His pleasure and for His purposes.

Again, God cannot be both arbitrary and just. They are opposites!

God is just!

Therefore, Calvinism is false!

Butski, most people refuse to accept this!

Nearly all of Christianity accepts this to one degree or another. Calvinism is basically just a Reformed version of Augustinian theology. Augustine got it from Plotinus, Plato, Aristotle and Socrates. That and religions all over the world teach one form or another of fate. In short, practically the entire unbelieving world believes this one version or another of this crap.

Most people insist on God being who they want Him to be.

Your doctrine teaches explicitly that they only do so because God predestined that they would! It is God who insists that they worship idols of their own making and then punishes them for doing as He forced them to do.

​

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

 

[Dougcho]

Therefore, Calvinism is false!

One question for thou ...
What do you make of all the Scriptures in the OP which are supposed to teach us that ...
man is totally incapable of choosing Jesus and the Gospel (on his/her own)?

 

[Clete]

One question for thou ...
What do you make of all the Scriptures in the OP which are supposed to teach us that ...
man is totally incapable of choosing Jesus and the Gospel (on his/her own)?

None of them teach that at all. You are reading your doctrine into the text. A point I have already made.

Indeed, none of your doctrine's distinctive teachings (i.e. those teachings that distinguish it from the rest of Christianity) are taught in scripture at all. The ENTIRE TULIP is 100% false. Immutability is false, Impassibility is false, original sin is false, and the omni-doctrines are all overstatements of the truth. In short, there isn't any aspect your distinctive doctrines that is correct. All of it has to be brought to the bible in an a priori fashion and read into the scripture and, to maintain doctrinal consistency, whole entire passages of scripture, sometimes entire books of the bible, have to be taken as figures of speech.

This is what happens when you bring your doctrine to the bible rather than letting the bible simply say what it says and conforming your doctrine to it. The difficulty comes when people such as yourself, buy into the paradigm to such a degree that they are blind to the fact that this is what they are doing. The worst ones, however, know that this is what they are doing and do it anyway and, more than that, insist that this is what must be done, which is just foolishness in the extreme!

Here's a big clue.

My doctrine rests on the foundational premise that God is real, alive, personal, rational, relational, righteous and just.

Your doctrine rests on the foundational premise that God is immutable. (NO! That is NOT my opinion! That's the truth. I is a fact, whether you're aware of it or choose to acknowledge it or not.)

 

[Dougcho]

original sin is false

If you don't understand and believe in original sin,
you are in a very poor spiritual condition!

If the Holy Spirit teaches Christians anything,
it is that all humans are born with an inherited sin nature.

This is a most fundamental doctrine
and is the main reason why the Word was
sent to earth to become flesh-human-Jesus,
whose sacrifice enabled people to be FREE of their sin,
and to be sanctified unto holiness, and to get to heaven!
Instead of going to hell forever.