Original sin is false because of what the Bible says.
Go read Ezekiel 18.
Yes, the whole chapter.
It puts the entire idea of "original sin" to rest, PERMANENTLY.
Unable to Believe the “Foolish” Gospel
- Thread starter Dougcho
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Original sin is false because of what the Bible says.
Go read Ezekiel 18.
Yes, the whole chapter.
It puts the entire idea of "original sin" to rest, PERMANENTLY.
SwordOfTruth
Active member
Completely false doctrine. Neither fundamental nor truthful.
Ezekiel 18
14“Now behold, he has fathered a son who saw all his father’s sins which he committed, but he has seen them and does not do likewise. 15He does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; he has not defiled his neighbor’s wife, 16nor oppressed anyone, nor retained a pledge, nor committed robbery; instead, he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 17he keeps his hand from [j]the poor, does not take any kind of interest on loans, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s guilt, he will certainly live."
19“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
I mean it's right there in black and white. Are you choosing to simply ignore this scripture?
A son will not suffer the punishment for the father's guilt.
Doesn't matter how bad a father is, or how much he sins, YOU are YOUR OWN PERSOSN and YOU are responsible for YOUR OWN behaviour and will be judged only on what YOU do, not what your father does.
The blind man recognized Jesus and called on Him before Jesus gave him sight.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Doug.
Lie!
This is so but not in the way you mean it.
We are indeed all descended from Adam and we do inherit what Paul calls "the flesh" from him. However, a major part of the gospel is the Jesus' death makes it so that no one will go to Hell because of Adam's sin other than perhaps Adam himself (i.e. I am not suggesting that Adam went to Hell but only that we do not know one way or the other.) This is what Romans 5 is all about.
Now, that's as far as I'm going to go for now explaining the details about original sin and related doctrines because it is all beside the point. The doctrinal details are interesting and worthwhile to study and to understand but such a discussion is far down the road from where we are here and it would only serve to muddy the water. The only thing anyone needs to know in order to confidently know with certainty that the doctrine of original sin (i.e. the Augustinian/Catholic/Calvinist version of that doctrine) is utterly false is that God is just!
That's literally the only thing you need to know! Accept the truth of a three syllable sentence that any third grade child can understand and the notion that we are condemned by God because of the sin our ancestor committed goes flying right out the window.
Indeed, Augustine was not the first to believe in such gross error! Many Jews believed it too! So much so that God got angry and commanded them to stop it to the point even of invoking His own existence, His own life, when He gave the command. And you don't even have the slightest idea what I'm talking about or where such a thing could possibly be found in the bible. You're probably sitting there right now thinking that there is some obscure verse in the book of Numbers that I've taken totally out of it context and am pretending that it teaches something against the idea of original sin but you'd be wrong. It isn't an isolate verse in the book of Numbers that no one hardly ever reads. It's an entire chapter of the bible written by one of the major prophets and the principle is repeated verbatim by a second major profit.
I DARE YOU TO READ IT!!!
God is just! Therefore, Calvinism is false!
Ezekiel18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
14 “If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18 “As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Turn and Live
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
I wrote the post immediately prior to this one before I read the post quoted above.
All I can say is, you are without excuse!
Wow! I'd be shaking in my boots of I were you. I mean you're in BIG trouble! Like, REALLY big!
SwordOfTruth
Active member
What ARE you harping on about ?!! My post iterates your own. Go read it again. My post is highlighting that a son does not get punished for the sins of his father. i.e. that the idea of inherited sin is false.
I'm not harping and my response to your post is based on the fact that our respective posts make the same point.
That passage in Ezekiel is like a phantom passage, SoT. There isn't 10% of Christianity that even knows that it exists and nearly all of those who do know that it exists, ignore it and pretend like it doesn't exist. The fact that you not only know that it exists but are willing to accept it to mean what it plainly states means that, unless something massively changes, you're going to find yourself before God without any excuse whatsoever. Not that anyone would have an excuse but you are here testifying against yourself, letting the entire world know that you reject God with the truth fully in view.