Two Laws - Moral & Ceremonial

[eleos]

The Bible presents two laws: one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary. One presents the duty of man to God and to his fellow men, the other was given because of man’s disobedience to God’s requirements.

**************
The Moral Law
**************

The moral law of the Ten Commandments is an expression of God’s character; it is the standard of all righteousness, an expression of His will. The Holy Bible was written by men under inspiration of God. "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). The moral law of the Ten Commandments was not given by inspiration, but was written by God’s own finger on tables of stone. "And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them" (Exodus 24:12). "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31: 18). See the Moral Law (Exodus 20:3-17) and (Deuteronomy 5:7-22).

The moral law is the embodiment of two great principles: Love toward our Creator and love toward our neighbor. When a lawyer asked Christ "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). The transgression of the moral law is called sin. Therefore, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

Of the moral law Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).

The Moral Law - Keep Commandments

Matthew 28:20

teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

John 15:14

"You are My friends if you do what I command you.

John 14:15

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

John 15:10

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:3

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

2 John 1:6

And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

John 8:51

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

John 8:52

The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'

1 John 2:4

The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 2:5

but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him:


*************
The Ceremonial Law
*****************

The ceremonial or provisional law was added because of the transgression of the moral law. The ceremonial law consisted of ordinances, ceremonies and sacrifices in the sanctuary system that pointed to the future redemption through Jesus Christ. This law typified the mysteries contained in the plan of redemption in Jesus. In the celebration of the Passover feast and the first fruit offering required to the Jewish people, God gave specifications to be observed that clearly represented Christ. The Bible says "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. The first of the first fruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God" (Exodus 34:25-26). The apostle Paul says: "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). Concerning the first fruit offering he later writes: "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).

After Christ’s death, the ceremonial law is no longer to be observed. Therefore "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Colossians 2:14-17). The laws consisting in ordinances, typifying Christ’s death was the one nailed on the cross, "having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:15). "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect" (Hebrews 10:1).

 

[jamie]

Very good.

What you are calling the "ceremonial" law is referred to in scripture as the Book of the Law and was placed beside the ark, but not in it.

"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 'Take this Book of the Law and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you" (Deuteronomy 31:24-26)

The Book of the Law was placed beside the ark, but not in it.

 

[Jacob]

The Bible presents two laws: one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary. One presents the duty of man to God and to his fellow men, the other was given because of man’s disobedience to God’s requirements.

**************
The Moral Law
**************

The moral law of the Ten Commandments is an expression of God’s character; it is the standard of all righteousness, an expression of His will. The Holy Bible was written by men under inspiration of God. "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). The moral law of the Ten Commandments was not given by inspiration, but was written by God’s own finger on tables of stone. "And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them" (Exodus 24:12). "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31: 18). See the Moral Law (Exodus 20:3-17) and (Deuteronomy 5:7-22).

The moral law is the embodiment of two great principles: Love toward our Creator and love toward our neighbor. When a lawyer asked Christ "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). The transgression of the moral law is called sin. Therefore, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

Of the moral law Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).

The Moral Law - Keep Commandments

Matthew 28:20

teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

John 15:14

"You are My friends if you do what I command you.

John 14:15

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

John 15:10

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:3

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

2 John 1:6

And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

John 8:51

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

John 8:52

The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'

1 John 2:4

The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 2:5

but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him:


*************
The Ceremonial Law
*****************

The ceremonial or provisional law was added because of the transgression of the moral law. The ceremonial law consisted of ordinances, ceremonies and sacrifices in the sanctuary system that pointed to the future redemption through Jesus Christ. This law typified the mysteries contained in the plan of redemption in Jesus. In the celebration of the Passover feast and the first fruit offering required to the Jewish people, God gave specifications to be observed that clearly represented Christ. The Bible says "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. The first of the first fruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God" (Exodus 34:25-26). The apostle Paul says: "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). Concerning the first fruit offering he later writes: "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).

After Christ’s death, the ceremonial law is no longer to be observed. Therefore "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Colossians 2:14-17). The laws consisting in ordinances, typifying Christ’s death was the one nailed on the cross, "having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:15). "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect" (Hebrews 10:1).

Shalom.

Today is Revi'i, 10-23, until sundown.

I am a Jew. We do not separate between or differentiate the law with moral and ceremonial.

Yeshua instructed to keep and teach the commandments.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Clete]

Jacob is wrong (sort of). Jews do differentiate between moral and symbolic law, they just don't state it or probably even think of it in those terms. But the Jews always have understood that ceremonial laws such as Sabbath observance and circumcision, for example, could conflict with one another and they had ways of dealing with it when they did. But there is no situation where moral laws can conflict with each other like ceremonial laws can. The Jews have always been aware of this, even if it wasn't explicitly stated.

Be that as it may, your opening post fails to establish its premise and I suspect that's because you couldn't establish it if you tried.

The Law, all of it, comes as a result of and is, in fact, an outgrowth of The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Further, Paul states explicitly that the Law was nailed to the cross. As such it certainly cannot be eternal (any of it). Unless you want to suggest that "the handwriting of requirements that was against us" consisted only of ceremonial rules and not moral ones.

What is eternal, however, is moral right and wrong, which has existed long before the Law and persists after the Law was nailed to the cross, nor is the Law needed to know right from wrong. What one needs is God, not the Law.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jacob]

Jacob is wrong (sort of). Jews do differentiate between moral and symbolic law, they just don't state it or probably even think of it in those terms. But the Jews always have understood that ceremonial laws such as Sabbath observance and circumcision could conflict with one another and they had ways of dealing with it when they did. But there is no situation where moral laws can conflict with each other like ceremonial laws can. The Jews have always been aware of this, even if it wasn't explicitly stated.

Be that as it may, your opening post fails to establish its premise and I suspect that's because you couldn't establish it if you tried.

The Law, all of it, comes as a result of and is, in fact, an outgrowth of The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Further, Paul states explicitly that the Law was nailed to the cross. As such it certainly cannot be eternal (any of it). Unless you want to suggest that "the handwriting of requirements that was against us" consisted only of ceremonial rules and not moral ones.

What is eternal, however, is moral right and wrong, which has existed long before the Law and persists after the Law was nailed to the cross, nor is the Law needed to know right from wrong. What one needs is God, not the Law.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Shalom.

Categorizing law as ceremonial or moral is either a Christian occupation or activity, even something that has been done in history, or it is neither Jewish nor Christian. Not all Christians do so. I know this.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[jamie]

One law placed in the ark, one law placed beside the ark.

One law written one tablets of stone, one law written in a book.

One law spoken by Christ to the people, one law written in a book.

 

[Clete]

Shalom.

Categorizing law as ceremonial or moral is either a Christian occupation or activity, even something that has been done in history, or it is neither Jewish nor Christian. Not all Christians do so. I know this.

Shalom.

Jacob

As a practical matter, there is no way to avoid treating the two categories differently even if you don't consciously make the distinction. Gentiles in Israel were not expected to participate in ceremonial Jewish Law observances. They were however, prosecuted for murder and theft and other violations of the moral laws. Conversely, Jews were to do no work of the flesh on a Sabbath. If, however, the eighth day of male child's life fell on a Sabbath, he was to be circumcised in spite of the fact that circumcision was considered a work of the flesh. The deference toward circumcision has to do primarily with the fact that circumcision came before the rest of the Jewish Law and was in fact symbolic of it. Moral laws, however, cannot conflict in this way. There is no situation that could occur where one would have to beat you up in order to keep from steeling your wallet. No criminal has to rape a woman in order to keep from murdering her. Etc.

It is in this sense that I say that even the Jews make the distinction between moral and ceremonial law. Further, even if you don't think of these laws in such terms, there can be no denying that such categories can be made and distinctions between the two groups can be discussed without necessarily implying that one is superior to the other. On that, particular point, however, if you wanted to ride that particular fence, you'd have a hard time explaining away the fact that murder was wrong long before Moses descended Mount Sinai with even the Ten Commandments, never mind the whole of the Jewish Law.

Clete

 

[Jacob]

As a practical matter, there is no way to avoid treating the two categories differently even if you don't consciously make the distinction. Gentiles in Israel were not expected to participate in ceremonial Jewish Law observances. They were however, prosecuted for murder and theft and other violations of the moral laws. Conversely, Jews were to do no work of the flesh on a Sabbath. If, however, the eighth day of male child's life fell on a Sabbath, he was to be circumcised in spite of the fact that circumcision was considered a work of the flesh. The deference toward circumcision has to do primarily with the fact that circumcision came before the rest of the Jewish Law and was in fact symbolic of it. Moral laws, however, cannot conflict in this way. There is no situation that could occur where one would have to beat you up in order to keep from steeling your wallet. No criminal has to rape a woman in order to keep from murdering her. Etc.

It is in this sense that I say that even the Jews make the distinction between moral and ceremonial law. Further, even if you don't think of these laws in such terms, there can be no denying that such categories can be made and distinctions between the two groups can be discussed without necessarily implying that one is superior to the other. On that, particular point, however, if you wanted to ride that particular fence, you'd have a hard time explaining away the fact that murder was wrong long before Moses descended Mount Sinai with even the Ten Commandments, never mind the whole of the Jewish Law.

Clete

Shalom.

I have asked around about God's Law, Jewish Law, Torah law, the Law of Moses. Not many people know what it is.

I do not know why you refer to circumcision as a work of the flesh.

I do not agree with what you are saying, and I do not follow it, but it may have a place in your development of your understanding of God and His Law being good. This will likely help you as you continue to share with others.

You are asking about what Gentiles are required to observe. This is not the Christian distinction between moral and ceremonial. It is not true that there is a ceremonial law that Gentiles do not need to or have to observe. As for moral law, God's law being moral, there are some difficulties that people have with this without even referring to anything called ceremonial law.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Clete]

Shalom.

I have asked around about God's Law, Jewish Law, Torah law, the Law of Moses. Not many people know what it is.

I do not know why you refer to circumcision as a work of the flesh.

I do not agree with what you are saying, and I do not follow it, but it may have a place in your development of your understanding of God and His Law being good. This will likely help you as you continue to share with others.

You are asking about what Gentiles are required to observe. This is not the Christian distinction between moral and ceremonial. It is not true that there is a ceremonial law that Gentiles do not need to or have to observe. As for moral law, God's law being moral, there are some difficulties that people have with this without even referring to anything called ceremonial law.

Shalom.

Jacob

I'm not asking anything and I'm not giving my opinion. How can anyone who knows a scintilla about the Jewish Law, doubt that circumcision is work of the flesh? What could possibly be more of a work of the flesh that removing some flesh from your body! There is also no doubt that the Jewish Law dealt with situations when ceremonial laws conflicted with each other. There's nothing I've said that anyone can doubt or even disagree with.

You do this sort of stupidity every time I interact with you. What are you even doing here?



Look, you know what, I don't care. Just believe whatever you want. I'm out.

Don't bother responding, I won't read it.

 

[Zeke]

Moral law is righteous judgement wrote on the heart, symbolized by ceremonial parables within a parable Psalms 78:2 of sacrificial types that the Father never told anyone to do literally for sin or any other reasons tradition has accused him of Psalms 40:6, a dark saying few literalist can digest while blinded by their own worship of religious intellectualism masquerading as God's spokesman, revealing who's the stupid idiot believing in a flesh and blood sacrifice because they lost their minds to a lie?

 

[iouae]

The Bible presents two laws: one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary.

There are the 10C - which are timeless.

There is circumcision, given to Abraham's descendants as a mark of a covenant.

Then there are all the rest of the 613 laws in the 5 books of Moses, which include some moral, and some ceremonial, some farming, some health, some administrative law.

Jacob is actually right that to try to separate these 613 laws into moral and ceremonial is wrong. For instance laws against marrying close family, or ploughing ox with donkey, resting land, keeping away from sick (unclean) people etc. These are for all people, for all time since they are just good sense.

 

[clefty]

The Bible presents two laws: one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary. One presents the duty of man to God and to his fellow men, the other was given because of man’s disobedience to God’s requirements.

**************
The Moral Law
**************

The moral law of the Ten Commandments is an expression of God’s character; it is the standard of all righteousness, an expression of His will. The Holy Bible was written by men under inspiration of God. "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). The moral law of the Ten Commandments was not given by inspiration, but was written by God’s own finger on tables of stone. "And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them" (Exodus 24:12). "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31: 18). See the Moral Law (Exodus 20:3-17) and (Deuteronomy 5:7-22).

The moral law is the embodiment of two great principles: Love toward our Creator and love toward our neighbor. When a lawyer asked Christ "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). The transgression of the moral law is called sin. Therefore, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

Of the moral law Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).

The Moral Law - Keep Commandments

Matthew 28:20

teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

John 15:14

"You are My friends if you do what I command you.

John 14:15

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

John 15:10

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:3

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

2 John 1:6

And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

John 8:51

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

John 8:52

The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'

1 John 2:4

The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 2:5

but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him:


*************
The Ceremonial Law
*****************

The ceremonial or provisional law was added because of the transgression of the moral law. The ceremonial law consisted of ordinances, ceremonies and sacrifices in the sanctuary system that pointed to the future redemption through Jesus Christ. This law typified the mysteries contained in the plan of redemption in Jesus. In the celebration of the Passover feast and the first fruit offering required to the Jewish people, God gave specifications to be observed that clearly represented Christ. The Bible says "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. The first of the first fruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God" (Exodus 34:25-26). The apostle Paul says: "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). Concerning the first fruit offering he later writes: "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).

After Christ’s death, the ceremonial law is no longer to be observed. Therefore "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadowof things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Colossians 2:14-17). The laws consisting in ordinances, typifying Christ’s death was the one nailed on the cross, "having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:15). "For the law having a shadow of good things to come,and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect" (Hebrews 10:1).

Just thoughts on bolded parts...

Passover was given to ALL of Israel...not just jews...as ANY who put the blood on the doorposts were passed over...many foreigners left with Israel and were saved...however if they wished to celebrate the passover they had to be circumcised as of Israel...(itself not circumcised until arriving at the promised land...saved but not yet entered in...)

Are we not Israel...citizens...grafted in?



Please note the present tense Paul used “Which ARE a shadow” NOT which WERE...Paul lived the latter...even instructed we use the new unleavened bread of truth and Spirit to celebrate the feast...

He hurried to Jerusalem for passsover...take gentile offerings for Pentecost...ahh yes Pentecost was observed as well...poor Stephan knew this restoration movement as the church of the wilderness

teaching Paul did NOT continue to observe and teach observance or that there were changes/abolishment is the false witness of jews used to stir up the people for to slander Paul...



That enmity was not only rules set in place by jews to keep seperate of gentiles but was a literal wall in the temple court between Jew and gentile...these didn’t even exist in the Old Testament as it was ONE law for foreigner and native alike...as with the Sabbath...given to the foreigner in thy gates

The law STILL HAVING a shadow of good things to come indeed...passover first fruits unleavened and Pentecost are fulfilled...His return with a shout/trumpet/noise and day of atonement and the living in booths of gold in paradise while this old world is made new and our permanent home...is all still to come...

 

[clefty]

Very good.

What you are calling the "ceremonial" law is referred to in scripture as the Book of the Law and was placed beside the ark, but not in it.

"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 'Take this Book of the Law and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you" (Deuteronomy 31:24-26)

The Book of the Law was placed beside the ark, but not in it.

And by witness against you he meant they were to be observed and be judged whether or not they were faithful to them...all these laws they were to “do and live” they were not against Israel...

Certain ordinances were inacted however if these laws were broken...these ordnance (misspelling intended) were then directed specifically to the law breaker and themselves a law “against you”...much like traffic laws have their tickets...the traffic law is not against you but the ticket is...

 

[chair]

As a practical matter, there is no way to avoid treating the two categories differently even if you don't consciously make the distinction. Gentiles in Israel were not expected to participate in ceremonial Jewish Law observances. They were however, prosecuted for murder and theft and other violations of the moral laws. Conversely, Jews were to do no work of the flesh on a Sabbath. If, however, the eighth day of male child's life fell on a Sabbath, he was to be circumcised in spite of the fact that circumcision was considered a work of the flesh. The deference toward circumcision has to do primarily with the fact that circumcision came before the rest of the Jewish Law and was in fact symbolic of it. Moral laws, however, cannot conflict in this way. There is no situation that could occur where one would have to beat you up in order to keep from steeling your wallet. No criminal has to rape a woman in order to keep from murdering her. Etc.

It is in this sense that I say that even the Jews make the distinction between moral and ceremonial law. Further, even if you don't think of these laws in such terms, there can be no denying that such categories can be made and distinctions between the two groups can be discussed without necessarily implying that one is superior to the other. On that, particular point, however, if you wanted to ride that particular fence, you'd have a hard time explaining away the fact that murder was wrong long before Moses descended Mount Sinai with even the Ten Commandments, never mind the whole of the Jewish Law.

Clete

The idea that moral laws can't conflict with each other is inaccurate. There are all kinds of cases, usually in extreme circumstances, where the issue arises.

Jews generally divide laws into those between man and his fellow man, and those between man and god. . Is this the equivalent of "moral" vs. "ceremonial"?

Some are both- the Sabbath, for example

 

[Clete]

The idea that moral laws can't conflict with each other is inaccurate. There are all kinds of cases, usually in extreme circumstances, where the issue arises.

Saying it doesn't make it so, chair. Notice how I gave examples of when ceremonial laws conflict. Why would you make such an assertion without doing the same? I'm pretty certain that moral laws cannot conflict with each other. My suspicion is that you are including things that are not moral in nature in your list of moral laws. The Sabbath, for example, is not a moral law as evidenced by the fact that other ceremonial laws would take precedence over it as well as the fact that not everyone was required to observe it and no one is required to do so now.

So, give me some examples of when one might have been required and thereby excused for breaking one moral law in order to keep from breakng another. Show me an example of a situation where it wouldn't have been wrong to break a moral law - if you can.

Clete

 

[Clete]

I want everyone to watch Vowels here ignore the bible....

There are the 10C - which are timeless.

Colossians 2: 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

 

[iouae]

I want everyone to watch Vowels here ignore the bible....

Colossians 2: 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

I did not ignore it, since here I am posting.
And I agree with the scripture you quoted.

Because Clete was responding to my saying "There are the 10C - which are timeless", I presume Clete thinks Col 2:14 somehow nullifies the 10C.

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

What was nailed to the cross apart from Jesus?
His charges, viz. "King of the Jews".
But Jesus died for us. He had no charges. All of our sins were laid upon Him, and that was added to "king of the jews".

It was customary to nail to the cross the charges for which they were being crucified.
This is what is referred to as "the handwriting of ordinances". This handwritten ordinance was what Pilate argued with the Priests over. The father added all our sins to that ordinance.

And this makes sense because it says "having forgiven you all trespasses;" before saying "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross".

So what was nailed to the cross with Jesus.
ALL OUR SINS. Nothing to do with the 10C. Our sin charge sheet was nailed to the cross.

All our trespasses or sins, which were contrary to us, because they condemned us to death, were nailed to the cross and blotted out.

Again this makes perfect sense since the cross has everything to do with removal of sins, nothing to do with removal of law.

But nice to hear from you again Clete

 

[Clete]

I did not ignore it, since here I am posting.
And I agree with the scripture you quoted.

You've ignored it in the past and are ignoring it now.

 

[chair]

Saying it doesn't make it so, chair. Notice how I gave examples of when ceremonial laws conflict. Why would you make such an assertion without doing the same? I'm pretty certain that moral laws cannot conflict with each other. My suspicion is that you are including things that are not moral in nature in your list of moral laws. The Sabbath, for example, is not a moral law as evidenced by the fact that other ceremonial laws would take precedence over it as well as the fact that not everyone was required to observe it and no one is required to do so now.

So, give me some examples of when one might have been required and thereby excused for breaking one moral law in order to keep from breakng another. Show me an example of a situation where it wouldn't have been wrong to break a moral law - if you can.

Clete

Calm down. I thought it was obvious.

Think about a third party coercing you to do something.
"Rob that bank, or I will kill you (or a hostage)"
"Murder Alex, or I will kill you"
"Hand over Alex, or we will kill everybody in your city"

at what point do you say "I won't do it"?

A woman in childbirth. It is going very badly, and the only way to save her is to kill the child. What do you do? (this seems far-fetched today, at least in places with decent medical care- but it wasn't in the past, and I suspect is still an issue in poor parts of the world.

Or a very simple one: steal food to save a starving child's life.

I'm sure you can think of many examples yourself.

 

[iouae]

You've ignored it in the past and are ignoring it now.

See #17