Truth distorted by our own people

[CherubRam]

How does one know truth?

Do you rely on your pastor for truth?

Does a family or friend try to lead you?

Time is major problem with learning, but here are a couple of things that are untruths that has been taught to us.

We should tithe else we are robbing God.
False, It was required in the old testament, not the new. Jesus only spoke to the scribes, the Jews, about tithing.

In Hebrews it speaks of those under to law tithing, not Christians. We give according to our hearts in order to help the Christian poor..

The Pastor is in charge of how we live.
No, the elders of the church has most of the responsibility of teaching.


In the rapture Christians will rise up.
No, the bible says the tares, the wicked, will be burnt and the Christians stay.

In the end Christians will rise up to take control as a matter of survival.

 

[CherubRam]

When was the beginning? When the books were written? Or sometime afterward?
"The Catholics" is exactly the same as the Church, back when the Church codified the Christian Bible as 73 books. The Catholic Church since then hasn't changed the Bible. "The Protestants," have.

Jews, Gnostic's, Pagans, and Christians have taken some liberties with the bible. That is why it is important to have a study type bible.


NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."

This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

 

[freelight]

Scribal liberties.......

Scribal liberties.......

Jews, Gnostic's, Pagans, and Christians have taken some liberties with the bible. That is why it is important to have a study type bible.

Well of course, since they WROTE the bible

Having a bible that presents or commentates on all manuscript variants (even marginal notes and glosses), is of course essential for any biblical study :thumb:

 

[CherubRam]

Well of course, since they WROTE the bible

Having a bible that presents or commentates on all manuscript variants (even marginal notes and glosses), is of course essential for any biblical study :thumb:

Thanks for your input. I'm glad you are paying attention.

 

[freelight]

The Comma Johanneum

The Comma Johanneum

NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."

This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

Yes, the good ole Comma Johanneum controversy.

Here is a good portal post, linking to other posts/video presentations on this issue, covered earlier.

Since I do not subscribe to a dogmatic assumption of 'biblical inerrancy', and deem it 'unnecessary' a 'belief' (since religious writings can be more or less 'inspired' while being subject to human imperfection and distortion),...this passage is fairly inconsequential and incidental as an interpolation.

It does seem BEST left out of the passage since it does not necessarily add anything to the 'context' except as a trinitarian analogy superimposed, since the emphasis of the writer is the Spirit bearing witness with the blood and water, as a testimony that Jesus Christ has been manifested in the flesh, and these three elements TOGETHER comprise a sure testimony of God concerning his SON. The Son of God is the main subject here, NOT a 'trinity' per se, NEITHER necessarily a 'Trinity' later defined in formal creeds made a few centuries later.

Granted these facts and rational observations, this passage is pretty weak as a 'Trinitarian' proof text for the 'Orthodox', and remains a conceptual embellishment, perhaps harmless or helpful within a certain allegorical sense, or wholly unnecessary anyways

 

[oatmeal]

That explains the need for the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers

Ephesians 4:11-14

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 

[CherubRam]

Trinitarianism is indeed one of a number of things implied in our bibles that has been embellished, to make it appear as a biblical truth.

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot]The Messenger and the Little Book[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John who represents the people of God accepts the little book.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again to many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Messenger with the little book removes all of the Pagan corruptions in our scriptures. That is why witnesses must go again to preach the real word of God.[/FONT]

 

[freelight]

That explains the need for the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers

Ephesians 4:11-14

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Well, such was writer of this epistle's opinion, but so many using these passages are Trinitarians....go figure. Any passage in the NT, is assumed by any so called 'believer' and interpreted by one's own preference beyond some universal sense. All is individually tailored

God is Spirit anyways,....one can spin or personalize 'God' as he wishes, and view Deity in any form, any gender or any configuration that suits his preference.

 

[freelight]

Trinitarianism is indeed one of a number of things implied in our bibles that has been embellished, to make it appear as a biblical truth.

And still, you can fraction, divide, compartmentalize or split 'God' up into any compound association,....the essence of 'God' is still ONE. Trinitarians will still argue that, if they are so spiritually inclined, regardless of their adherence for tradition or dogma. Hence on one level, such assumptions are merely 'cosmetic', in the greater cosmic context of things. - these are but relational concepts, and if we give 'God' more 'arms' (as in some Hindu deities)...He can appear to do more tasks and accomplish more for the sake of his creation - why not give him more personalities while the going is good?

 

[CherubRam]

And still, you can fraction, divide, compartmentalize or split 'God' up into any compound association,....the essence of 'God' is still ONE. Trinitarians will still argue that, if they are so spiritually inclined, regardless of their adherence for tradition or dogma. Hence on one level, such assumptions are merely 'cosmetic', in the greater cosmic context of things. - these are but relational concepts, and if we give 'God' more 'arms' (as in some Hindu deities)...He can appear to do more tasks and accomplish more for the sake of his creation - why not give him more personalities while the going is good?

I am certain that God does not approve Pagan notions being joined to Him.