Trump: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

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WizardofOz

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He's making a bad point then, WoZ. A friend of mine said that to me the other day. I reminded him that the monuments to Washington and Jefferson aren't in support or recognition of their status as slave owners. They're about a nation's gratitude for service in the founding and preservation of the Republic.

The statues of Confederate generals serve something else, the effort to preserve and advance slavery. We shouldn't memorialize that institution or service to it. If someone wants to convince anyone that the monument to Lee in New Orleans is about his post war service to the city I say fine, commission another statue of him without the uniform.

No one is going to put up an alternative version of Lee. When was the last Lee monument built? Likely around 100 years ago...

I think imperfect is a bit too light to describe the nature of anyone who fought to protect and advance a system that permitted the raping, selling, and mutilation of other human beings as though they were nothing at all more than property, without dignity or right.

We compound that "imperfection" when we memorialize it and cover those men with any semblance of honor.


I believe taking those monuments down is precisely a teaching moment. Or at least the evidence of a little learning.

So did the Viet Nam conflict. But I'm adamantly against a statue to Ho Chi Minh in our local park, if it's proposed. And I won't have any trouble remembering that undeclared war without it.
No one is talking about putting new monuments up. This is about taking down historical monuments that have stood for (nearly) a century.

Robert Edward Lee Sculpture. Completed in 1924 and listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1997. It's a historical monument. If those who live in Charlottesville want it removed, let them remove it. If they decide they want it to stay put, how does it pick your pocket? Why would the National Register of Historic Places list this monument as recently as 1997? :think:

When a dime-a-dozen freedom from religion group pushes to remove Christ of the Ozarks in Arkansas, as an example, why shouldn't we support the removal? Or how about a roadside cross in Oregon? Or a cross in a Pensacola park? How about the National Statuary Hall Collection, Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C. Or the Confederate Memorial in Arlington National Cemetery?

I mean I can see how much the talk of bringing these monument down is really easing race relations and uniting people. :rolleyes:
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
No one is going to put up an alternative version of Lee. When was the last Lee monument built? Likely around 100 years ago...

No one is talking about putting new monuments up. This is about taking down historical monuments that have stood for (nearly) a century.

Robert Edward Lee Sculpture. Completed in 1924 and listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1997. It's a historical monument. If those who live in Charlottesville want it removed, let them remove it. If they decide they want it to stay put, how does it pick your pocket? Why would the National Register of Historic Places list this monument as recently as 1997? :think:

When a dime-a-dozen freedom from religion group pushes to remove Christ of the Ozarks in Arkansas, as an example, why shouldn't we support the removal? Or how about a roadside cross in Oregon? Or a cross in a Pensacola park? How about the National Statuary Hall Collection, Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C. Or the Confederate Memorial in Arlington National Cemetery?

I mean I can see how much the talk of bringing these monument down is really easing race relations and uniting people. :rolleyes:
It's appeasing blacks
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
From the Memorial at Arlington

NOT FOR FAME OR REWARD
NOT FOR PLACE OR FOR RANK
NOT LURED BY AMBITION
OR GOADED BY NECESSITY
BUT IN SIMPLE
OBEDIENCE TO DUTY
AS THEY UNDERSTOOD IT
THESE MEN SUFFERED ALL
SACRIFICED ALL
DARED ALL — AND DIED
RANDOLPH HARRISON MCKIM
 

WizardofOz

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DHoSIGaXsAAV0R9.jpg


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Goodnight-e1486734682925.jpg


Hey Antifa: Free Speech is Not Negotiable


Let’s be very clear about this:

Antifa is not an anti-fascist movement. It is a violent authoritarian movement that creatively brands and markets itself as anti-fascist.

Nor is Antifa an anarchist movement. Violent authoritarianism which attempts to suppress the dissemination of ideas through speech — to rule the minds and mouths of others through force — is not anarchism even if it formally eschews the state as its instrument of coercion.

An anarchist acquaintance of mine considers my free speech fundamentalism to constitute evidence that I’m a “liberal” (in the classical sense, emphasis on civil liberties) rather than a libertarian and, yes, an anarchist. I disagree, but if that’s the case I guess I’ll just have to live with whatever designation my beliefs imply.

To my mind, a free society must necessarily be composed of free people. People who don’t enjoy freedom of thought and speech are not free. No free speech, no free people. No free people, no free society. It’s really just that simple.

I’m not a pacifist, mind you. I’ve spent plenty of time in protests and have done at least my share of facing down klansmen and other fascists, not to mention riot police. If it comes down to combat, it does. But I’m not going to be the one to start it. People who are confident that their ideas are better than the other guys’ ideas don’t need to throw the first punch.

If you violently oppose free speech, you’re humanity’s enemy. And humanity should treat you as such.



Tensions are mounting in Boston, where 500 police are working to separate dozens of Free Speech Rally-goers from thousands of counter-protesters marching against hate.

Why would antifa march and protest against a free speech rally? :think:
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
DHoSIGaXsAAV0R9.jpg


DHrjRXiV0AARzaN.jpg


Goodnight-e1486734682925.jpg


Hey Antifa: Free Speech is Not Negotiable


Let’s be very clear about this:

Antifa is not an anti-fascist movement. It is a violent authoritarian movement that creatively brands and markets itself as anti-fascist.

Nor is Antifa an anarchist movement. Violent authoritarianism which attempts to suppress the dissemination of ideas through speech — to rule the minds and mouths of others through force — is not anarchism even if it formally eschews the state as its instrument of coercion.

An anarchist acquaintance of mine considers my free speech fundamentalism to constitute evidence that I’m a “liberal” (in the classical sense, emphasis on civil liberties) rather than a libertarian and, yes, an anarchist. I disagree, but if that’s the case I guess I’ll just have to live with whatever designation my beliefs imply.

To my mind, a free society must necessarily be composed of free people. People who don’t enjoy freedom of thought and speech are not free. No free speech, no free people. No free people, no free society. It’s really just that simple.

I’m not a pacifist, mind you. I’ve spent plenty of time in protests and have done at least my share of facing down klansmen and other fascists, not to mention riot police. If it comes down to combat, it does. But I’m not going to be the one to start it. People who are confident that their ideas are better than the other guys’ ideas don’t need to throw the first punch.

If you violently oppose free speech, you’re humanity’s enemy. And humanity should treat you as such.



Tensions are mounting in Boston, where 500 police are working to separate dozens of Free Speech Rally-goers from thousands of counter-protesters marching against hate.

Why would antifa march and protest against a free speech rally? :think:




According to town, they're as peaceful as a stadium full of Chargers fans :idunno:
 

WizardofOz

New member
‘Film the Klan, don’t film us’: Antifa thugs attack reporter, next thing you know he’s in the hospital getting stitches

Man stabbed after haircut gets him mistaken for a neo-Nazi


Witt says he’d just pulled in to the parking lot of the Steak ’n Shake in Sheridan, Colo., and was opening his car door.

“All I hear is, ‘Are you one of them neo-Nazis?’ as this dude is swinging a knife up over my car door at me,” he said.

“I threw my hands up and once the knife kind of hit, I dived back into my car and shut the door and watched him run off west, behind my car.

“The dude was actually aiming for my head,” he added.

“I was more in shock because I was just getting a milkshake.”

Witt says he has no tattoos or regalia that would finger him for a fascist. His pals are messaging him on Facebook with the only rationale they can come up with: “They say it’s my haircut.”



:doh:
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Take down ALL the statues -- it will definitely halt black-on-black violence & crime, black male *incarceration, poverty,*bring down Black Mother illegitimate*birth rates and black America will rise.*Laughter ensues.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Why would antifa march and protest against a free speech rally? :think:
I was wondering that as well. In Charlottesville it was about a Confederate statue and the event had been taken over by neo-nazis. But in Boston it was supposed to be about free speech and I hadn't heard that it was getting overrun by nazis. Is the idea that "free speech" is just a proxy for white supremacy? :idunno: If it is, then is the best solution to let that stand and protest against it? Or is it better to march for free speech AND against racism?
 

kmoney

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That's right, we could....if one looks deeper, we can all find skeletons in the closet
Calling it a skeleton in the closet seems to be missing the point. It isn't that memorialized people should be perfect. It's about the causes they fought for, their overall work. I know you'd disagree that the Confederate leaders were only fighting for slavery but in any case it can't be boiled down to a skeleton in their closet.
 

Tambora

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Hall of Fame
Take down ALL the statues -- it will definitely halt black-on-black violence & crime, black male *incarceration, poverty,*bring down Black Mother illegitimate*birth rates and black America will rise.*Laughter ensues.
Laughter indeed.
 

WizardofOz

New member
I was wondering that as well. In Charlottesville it was about a Confederate statue and the event had been taken over by neo-nazis. But in Boston it was supposed to be about free speech and I hadn't heard that it was getting overrun by nazis. Is the idea that "free speech" is just a proxy for white supremacy? :idunno: If it is, then is the best solution to let that stand and protest against it? Or is it better to march for free speech AND against racism?

The Boston free speech rally had nothing to do with white nationalists or nazis or the kkk, et al.

Here’s what happened at the ‘free speech’ rally and counter-protests on Boston Common

The antifa just doesn't like free speech.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Regardless, if the white nationalists had a rally and no one attended, they would appear as fools talking in the wind. Any audience makes them matter, it gives them feedback and purpose. It would seem the best way to silence them would be to ignore them, yet people of all kinds like attention and that is why this goes on.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
A look back in history, including the charges and threats of violence from both sides.

1979 Klan-Nazi attack survivor hopes for a 'justice river'

GREENSBORO, N.C. (AP) — The Rev. Nelson Johnson needs no reminders of the massacre of five of his labor-activist friends almost 40 years ago — he still has the faded scar on his left arm, left by a Nazi who stabbed him as white supremacists descended on a march for workers through black neighborhoods in Greensboro.

But the violence surrounding the Aug. 12 march by Ku Klux Klansmen and Nazis in Charlottesville, Virginia, and the death of a young woman hit by a car there, brought the events of Nov. 3, 1979, in sharper focus for him.

"I was horrified," he said.

Johnson, now 74, was a member of the Workers Viewpoint Organization, which planned a march through a public housing project in Greensboro before a labor conference on Nov. 3, 1979. While the focus was on workers, textile mill wages and brown lung disease, it was also billed as a "Death to the Klan" rally. Both the rally title and the organization's decision to rename itself the Communist Workers Party were mistakes, Johnson now acknowledges.

Nazis and Ku Klux Klansmen drove into the march and then fired at demonstrators, and a report found that some demonstrators also were armed and fired in response. Five marchers were killed and at least 10 people were wounded, including Johnson. All-white juries at two trials acquitted the Klan and Nazi members, who claimed self-defense. Testimony showed both the police and the then-Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms had been warned by informants about the Klan-Nazi plans.

Members of the Greensboro Police Department, along with Klan and Nazi members, were found liable at a civil trial for the death of one victim, and the city paid $351,000 to his family. The details were outlined in a report , completed in 2006 by the Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

A Nazi knifed Johnson's left arm, which Johnson had used defensively to prevent a more serious wound to his abdomen. A light scar, faded over 38 years, is barely visible, and Johnson can't move one finger because of where the knife sliced a muscle.

Early reports described the attack as an ambush, but the narrative changed quickly from that to one of equivalent blame for the marchers and the killers — similar to what President Donald Trump said this week about Charlottesville.

"To hear our president frame the issue this way was frighteningly familiar," Johnson said.

Still, he's optimistic about the public response and that of local and state leaders to the Charlottesville protest and death, compared to the way officials reacted in Greensboro in 1979.

"The response was much different," he said. "The mayor, the governor, the leaders of Charlottesville all quickly came to the defense of those who were brutalized and abused. Nothing approximating that happened in Greensboro. And we were quickly isolated and alone."

Death threats led Johnson and his family to move from their house in the woods on the edge of the city to a home with several other families. He couldn't find a job. About 20 pro-labor protesters who had jobs in the Greensboro area were fired and left town, he said.

The attack came at a time when the WVO was "building the strongest black unity in the history of Greensboro," Johnson said. It destroyed the CWP, which changed its name once again before folding.

"If somebody could have told me that I would have become a pariah in this city, I just wouldn't have believed it," he said. While listening to a radio show, he heard callers say that his death would have been the best outcome of the Greensboro massacre.

It has taken four decades, but attitudes in Greensboro are changing. In 2015, the state placed a highway marker near the site of the march and titled it "Greensboro Massacre," a word that even the truth and reconciliation report had avoided. And last week, spurred by the Charlottesville violence, the Greensboro City Council officially apologized.

Change can be painful, Johnson said, but he's convinced it is coming.

"There are going to be, in the process of social transformation, suffering and tragedies," Johnson said, standing underneath the marker. "I do think, though, that when you can transform tragedy into triumph, it forms a justice stream. And as those justice streams begin to merge, it forms a justice river."
Rivers, Johnson said, have power to alter the landscape.

"And that's what I think this period is calling us to," he said. "There are a lot of rivers in the last few years. The Dallas river. The Charlotte river. And you could go on for a while. How do we take those struggles, where that unearned suffering becomes redemptive and becomes part of a stream building a mighty river of transformation? I see this sign here as a symbol of that."
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
[MENTION=83]Nihilo[/MENTION]

Nihilo, I thought you might like to see this:


STATEMENT OF ARCHBISHOP CHARLES J. CHAPUT, O.F.M. CAP.
REGARDING RACIAL VIOLENCE IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA

Racism is a poison of the soul. It’s the ugly, original sin of our country, an illness that has never fully healed. Blending it with the Nazi salute, the relic of a regime that murdered millions, compounds the obscenity. Thus the wave of public anger about white nationalist events in Charlottesville this weekend is well warranted. We especially need to pray for those injured in the violence.

But we need more than pious public statements. If our anger today is just another mental virus displaced tomorrow by the next distraction or outrage we find in the media, nothing will change. Charlottesville matters. It’s a snapshot of our public unraveling into real hatreds brutally expressed; a collapse of restraint and mutual respect now taking place across the country. We need to keep the images of Charlottesville alive in our memories. If we want a different kind of country in the future, we need to start today with a conversion in our own hearts, and an insistence on the same in others. That may sound simple. But the history of our nation and its tortured attitudes toward race proves exactly the opposite.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
The Boston free speech rally had nothing to do with white nationalists or nazis or the kkk, et al.

Here’s what happened at the ‘free speech’ rally and counter-protests on Boston Common

The antifa just doesn't like free speech.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A Vox reporter talked to some of of the Free Speech rally participants.

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/19/16173862/boston-rally-protest-size-august-19

Rally participants wanted this to be about free speech. Protesters were focused on Charlottesville.
The Boston rally was nothing close to what happened in Charlottesville.

The attendees or event supporters I spoke to didn’t openly promote hate-filled causes. Again, most preferred that racists and bigots not take part in their rally.

Still, hate-speech advocates were given a platform at their event because the organizers wanted to give them a chance to speak their minds. That’s different than an entire event in Charlottesville based on white supremacy. This group even held a rally in May with the same objectives; it just received far less press attention.

The protesters — who numbered in the thousands — didn’t seem to buy the nuance. Among them were a mixture of peace-loving veterans, masked agitators, teenagers, champions of racial, gender, and sexual equality, and more.

Some protesters took advantage of their numerical advantage by shouting and denouncing rally-goers, even chasing them around Boston Common. Many Free Speechers I saw required police assistance to make it through the thousands of protesters. (Around 500 police guarded the rally and its participants from start to finish.)
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
The Boston free speech rally had nothing to do with white nationalists or nazis or the kkk, et al.
Doesn't appear to be, but it's not exactly a broad spectrum of speech either. Scheduled to appear before the handbaskets came out:

Gavin McInnes, who is the founder of Proud Boys, a far right organization. He supported then candidate Trumps idea of banning Muslims from coming to the states. He's was accused of antisemitism after defending holocaust deniers, but claimed later it was a joke. He said in an interview with the NY Times, "I don't want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to the Western, English speaking way of life." That was in 2003. So, a publicity seeking missile with some questionable positions, but a far cry from the Stormfront crowd.

Augustus Invictus, birth name Austin Gillespie, publisher of The Revolutionary Republican and owner of a ridiculously self promoting handle. Libertarians have had some problems with him and there are allegations of association with White Nationalist groups. Once wrote an article that supported eugenics. He was called a violent fascist and neo-Nazi by the chairman of the Libertarian party before parting company to become a Republican. He acted as counsel for American Front, a white supremacist organization. He considers himself a pagan.

Kyle "Based Stick Man" Chapman, a guy whose claim to fame is swinging a large stick at Berkley demonstrators a while back, felony counts pending.

Cassandra Fairbanks, who went from shouting "[redacted] the police!" to, 25 months later, becoming a leader in the "Deplorable's" movement. She appears to like to be hip deep in anything that smacks of rebellion and describes supporting Trump as "punk rock" politics and notes her affinity for counterculture. She also blames common core for her not being able to understand her daughter's homework. :plain:

Joe Biggs, former inforwars reporter and right winger.

Brandon Navum, whom I don't know anything about outside of his organizing role...so not much in common with the Charlottesville rally.
 
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