Trump: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

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rexlunae

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Do you even understand what the deep state is?

Yes, I do, on two levels. On one level, I know what conspiracy theorists mean by the "deep state", and that's mostly a delusion. Really, it represents resentment that, now that they've got one of their own into office, they don't get to have their way everywhere on everything. But, it's true that the state has a depth to it. That's inherent in the design, as encoded into law by the Constitution and the laws of the United States. The government doesn't, generally, turn over completely because of any one election. Elections matter, and they help to set the direction the government is moving, but the vast military, intelligence, and civil service of the United States does not, while the Congress moves on its own timetable and according to its own mandates, and the courts move excruciatingly slowly. This institutional depth is a guard against tyranny, and a moderating force.

When a President enters office, his or her institutional influence is at its nadir, since they haven't appointed anyone to anything. And it grows from there as they put their mark on office. But their power at the outset flows from their electoral mandate. One of the reasons that Trump is so weak, as a President, is that he has a negative mandate (which is why he's forced to talk about the Electoral College that he once advocated abolishing), and he is very unpopular, and he's made no effort to reach out and govern the whole country, going back time and again to the people who affirm him instead of challenge him, narrowing his appeal to an ever-smaller point.

Your post makes no sense. The deep state works against those who disagree with their political ideology, thus guaranteeing that a president on one side of the political aisle will be much more powerful than one from the other side of the aisle. One can do whatever he wants, the other can get hardly anything done because the bureaucrats are working against him by not doing their job, causing as many slowdowns as they can, leaking sensitive information, and just generally throwing monkey wrenches into the workings of the bureaucracy so that little or nothing of the business of the state along those lines gets done.

Trump has declared a sort of war against his own administration. That's part of the reason he finds it hard to govern. Another is that some of the things he wants to do are flatly illegal, and he's bumped up against the boundaries set by the courts, which Republicans have been perfectly happy to deploy against Barack Obama a handful of months ago. He may want to run a government with no services, no diplomacy, and a huge military, where the legal system responds directly to his whims and can be deployed to fight his personal vendettas, but that's not the law, and Trump can't change the law on his own. And I think that if you think about it, you wouldn't want it to be the law, particularly when Democrats win the Presidency. I never trust presidents who try to maximize their personal power, and I would suggest that you shouldn't either.

These people don't care if work that needs to be done for the good of all us doesn't get done. They just want to frustrate their political opponents. To me it's not much different than treason for they don't care if the country goes down the tubes while they are playing politics.

Trump has left vast swathes of the government unstaffed, and in a lot of cases, put staff in place with the explicit agenda that they would fight against their own agencies as the law constructs them. That's where the work gets done, and he's largely shooting himself in the foot by doing so. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a government that's internally at war with itself isn't real productive. That is 100% on Trump. And if you're glaring a members of Congress, each one of them from both parties have their own separate mandates from their voters, and you shouldn't expect them to be onboard with an unpopular person like Donald Trump just because he got himself elected to an office he is unsuited for and that he doesn't want or like.
 
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patrick jane

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Do you even understand what the deep state is? Your post makes no sense. The deep state works against those who disagree with their political ideology, thus guaranteeing that a president on one side of the political aisle will be much more powerful than one from the other side of the aisle. One can do whatever he wants, the other can get hardly anything done because the bureaucrats are working against him by not doing their job, causing as many slowdowns as they can, leaking sensitive information, and just generally throwing monkey wrenches into the workings of the bureaucracy so that little or nothing of the business of the state along those lines gets done.

These people don't care if work that needs to be done for the good of all us doesn't get done. They just want to frustrate their political opponents. To me it's not much different than treason for they don't care if the country goes down the tubes while they are playing politics.
You'll soon see and identify the liberals like rex and realize it's a waste of time and energy attempting to discuss anything with them.
 

Danoh

New member
Yeah, imagine if we hadn't.....no Osama Bin laden, no 9/11, no war on terrorism, no tsa....no unpatriotic act and all its' reauthorizations etc...

And the 1000s who died in an unnecessary war.

Congrats.

You're both off.

Even if our Government (not us The People - but our Government) had never been meddling in the affairs of other countries on behalf of the ever over blown greed of various huge Corporate interests, and or vice versa as to those countries, we and or said countries, would still have to contend with the fact of all sorts of criminals from the local to the international and every aspect in between the two, including but far from limited to the criminal, Radical Islam.

Just as here in the U.S. all sorts of criminals arise from every walk of life, within every area of life, to attempt to take by force, if not through equally immoral coercion from others not bothering them in any way, shape, or form, what such immoral individuals simply have no right to.

So no, our Governments or theirs meddling, or not, has nothing to do with the fact that no one has a right to mess with neither "us" nor "other people."

Unless warranted.

Which, of course, often ends up the opening up of quite "a can of worms."
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...on-putin-over-election-meddling-idUSKBN1DC031

At a news conference in Vietnam, Trump distanced himself from remarks he made on Saturday in which he suggested he believed Putin when he said there had been no Russian meddling in the election that took him to the White House.

The comments had drawn criticism at home because U.S. intelligence agencies have long since concluded there was Russian meddling.

“As to whether I believe it or not, I’m with our agencies, especially as currently constituted,” Trump said at a news conference with Vietnamese President Tran Dai Quang.


The way it goes is Trump tweets whatever's passing through his brain at the moment, and then his handlers following behind with the mop and broom go into cleanup mode and help him find the words to say what he should have said in the first place...
 

Danoh

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The way it goes is Trump tweets whatever's passing through his brain at the moment, and then his handlers following behind with the mop and broom go into cleanup mode and help him find he words to say what he should have said in the first place...

Can't say I blame him.

After all, that is exactly how he ran his so called business world - one or another of his various minions having to mop up after him.

Huh - well, whatayaknow - he was practicing being a politician, all along.

:rotfl:
 

Town Heretic

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You'll soon see and identify the liberals like rex and realize it's a waste of time and energy attempting to discuss anything with them.
Look PJ, if the goal is to change someone's mind or position around here you might as well do a crossword puzzle instead for the likely distinction in outcomes. Or, it can be a good bit of informative fun to actually discuss something, even to argue it, but you have to be willing and able to do that or you're just...whistling Dixie in a Confederate graveyard.
 

Rusha

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Or, maybe we'll have a productive conversation and find some common ground. It can happen. I live in hope.

It can and does ... the keyword is *productive*. While most of my views have stayed the same, there are some individuals who were able to make me at least understand or reconsider my own. It means presenting a view with intelligence, logic and ... civility.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
It can and does ... the keyword is *productive*. While most of my views have stayed the same, there are some individuals who were able to make me at least understand or reconsider my own. It means presenting a view with intelligence, logic and ... civility.
Like your logic that Trump is Putin's pawn and Putin is controlling Trump and America. Yeah, lots of "civil" discussion to be had there.
 

patrick jane

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Look PJ, if the goal is to change someone's mind or position around here you might as well do a crossword puzzle instead for the likely distinction in outcomes. Or, it can be a good bit of informative fun to actually discuss something, even to argue it, but you have to be willing and able to do that or you're just...whistling Dixie in a Confederate graveyard.
You liberals have the same opportunity to see accurate information as I do and you ignore it. My goal here has never been to change someone's mind or position. I that what liberals here think they're accomplishing?
 

Gary K

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Banned
IF that were the case, you might have a point. However, thus far, there has not been any policies that have come from Trump that are beneficial to America. His only goal has been to seek revenge on Obama and thus far his presidency is focused more on Obama than ... Americans.

Really? His only goal is to attack Obama? Interesting.... Then why does Trump show everyone that enters the Oval Office the letter Obama left him? And you claim this behavior is because Trump hates Obama so badly.... That's pretty odd reasoning if you ask me.
 

Gary K

New member
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Yes, I do, on two levels. On one level, I know what conspiracy theorists mean by the "deep state", and that's mostly a delusion. Really, it represents resentment that, now that they've got one of their own into office, they don't get to have their way everywhere on everything. But, it's true that the state has a depth to it. That's inherent in the design, as encoded into law by the Constitution and the laws of the United States. The government doesn't, generally, turn over completely because of any one election. Elections matter, and they help to set the direction the government is moving, but the vast military, intelligence, and civil service of the United States does not, while the Congress moves on its own timetable and according to its own mandates, and the courts move excruciatingly slowly. This institutional depth is a guard against tyranny, and a moderating force.

When a President enters office, his or her institutional influence is at its nadir, since they haven't appointed anyone to anything. And it grows from there as they put their mark on office. But their power at the outset flows from their electoral mandate. One of the reasons that Trump is so weak, as a President, is that he has a negative mandate (which is why he's forced to talk about the Electoral College that he once advocated abolishing), and he is very unpopular, and he's made no effort to reach out and govern the whole country, going back time and again to the people who affirm him instead of challenge him, narrowing his appeal to an ever-smaller point.



Trump has declared a sort of war against his own administration. That's part of the reason he finds it hard to govern. Another is that some of the things he wants to do are flatly illegal, and he's bumped up against the boundaries set by the courts, which Republicans have been perfectly happy to deploy against Barack Obama a handful of months ago. He may want to run a government with no services, no diplomacy, and a huge military, where the legal system responds directly to his whims and can be deployed to fight his personal vendettas, but that's not the law, and Trump can't change the law on his own. And I think that if you think about it, you wouldn't want it to be the law, particularly when Democrats win the Presidency. I never trust presidents who try to maximize their personal power, and I would suggest that you shouldn't either.



Trump has left vast swathes of the government unstaffed, and in a lot of cases, put staff in place with the explicit agenda that they would fight against their own agencies as the law constructs them. That's where the work gets done, and he's largely shooting himself in the foot by doing so. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a government that's internally at war with itself isn't real productive. That is 100% on Trump. And if you're glaring a members of Congress, each one of them from both parties have their own separate mandates from their voters, and you shouldn't expect them to be onboard with an unpopular person like Donald Trump just because he got himself elected to an office he is unsuited for and that he doesn't want or like.

In reply to your first paragraph. And the deep state can also be a tyrannical force when it collectively decides to oppose the agenda of the current administration. Do you realize that federal government employees are being taught, on government property, on government time, and in government buildings, just how far they can go in opposing what they have been tasked to do without being prosecuted? Real good expenditure of tax payer funds and actually doing what they were hired to do. Imagine going to work for a company that decides, after you've been there a while, to change the focus and direction of the business. You're not real happy about this, so what do you do? You start deliberately working against the company's interest while drawing your paycheck every week. Real ethical huh? That's exactly what government employees are doing.

Trump has not declared war on his own administration. Many of his own administration have declared war on him. You have it exactly backwards.

One of the big reasons Trump has left a lot of vacancies and cut a lot of jobs is because of how inefficent a whole lot of government is. I'll show you this by an experience from my own life. I went to work for the VA in the early 90s. It was the first time I had ever worked for any public organization. I had spent my entire life working in the private sector. What I found there was a complete culture shock. I was hired on a temporary basis to do a technical job. The guy I was hired to help did absolutely nothing. He didn't have a clue how to do his job, and he had destroyed 10s of thousands of dollars of equipment through his absolute incompetence. He spent his days reading in the hospital library and walking around and talking to people. He would then, at the end of the day, fill out time slips on all the supposed jobs he had done. I did all his actual work.

This guy could not have lasted a week in the private sector. Every job he would have been sent out on would have meant a call back for he knew absolutely nothing about the job. Yet, he had worked for the VA for 5 years and was considered a journeyman in his field. It was basically impossible to fire him due to the strength of the union. So, this guy went on year after year collecting his $60-70 grand a year from the taxpayers while doing absolutely nothing to earn it. And he wasn't the only one doing that. There were a ton of drones there that did nothing to earn their paycheck.

The other reason Trump hasn't filled a lot of positions is because Congress has deliberately been slow-walking his appointments. You leave departments without leadership and all kinds of things don't get done. Blaming Trump for this is ridiculous. Blaming Trump for wanting to clean up the inefficiences and sloth of many government workers is also ridiculous. Those people are stabbing every taxpayer in existence in the back and almost literally giving us all the finger. And you think Trump wanting to make government run efficiently is a bad thing....

Oh, come on, on the Congress thing. The establishment Republicans have promised for years to do the very things Trump is wanting to do. And now that they have the power to actually do something what do they do? They stab Trump and everyone who has ever voted for them on the basis of what they promised to do in the back. They are a bunch of dishonest slimeballs. They have been promising to do things for years that has become exceedingly obvious that they have no intent to ever do. Sleazeballs all the way through. They believe exactly what the Democrats do and yet they have been saying for years that they stand in direct opposition to the Democrat's agenda. How any honest person can have any respect for that, or even come close to defending that type of behavior is beyond me. To me it says their defenders are just as dishonest as they are.
 

kmoney

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I agree with your last sentence that I bolded. I would add, that if we are going to be consistent, that we then can't really show a whole lot of outrage if someone else tries to influence our elections. Turn about has always been fair play. If we want to be outraged about what someone else has done then we had better not be guilty of the same thing ourselves.
I agree with that. However, I tend to think most of the outrage is directed towards Trump, not Russia.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
The other reason Trump hasn't filled a lot of positions is because Congress has deliberately been slow-walking his appointments.

Sounds familiar:


http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-judge-20171110-story.html

When Trump took office in January, there were more than 100 vacant seats on the federal courts, thanks to an unprecedented slowdown engineered by McConnell during the final two years of President Obama’s term. The Senate under GOP control approved only 22 judges in that two-year period, the lowest total since 1951-52 in the last year of President Truman’s term. By contrast, the Senate under Democratic control approved 68 judges in the last two years of George W. Bush’s presidency.

The best-known vacancy was on the Supreme Court. After Justice Antonin Scalia died in February 2016, McConnell refused to permit a hearing for Judge Merrick Garland, Obama’s nominee. Trump filled the seat this year with Justice Neil M. Gorsuch.

Although the GOP can move fast when they want to:

Brett J. Talley, President Trump’s nominee to be a federal judge in Alabama, has never tried a case, was unanimously rated “not qualified” by the American Bar Assn.’s judicial rating committee, has practiced law for only three years and, as a blogger last year, displayed a degree of partisanship unusual for a judicial nominee, denouncing “Hillary Rotten Clinton” and pledging support for the National Rifle Assn.
On Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee, on a party-line vote, approved him for a lifetime appointment to the federal bench.


 

Tambora

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I love this one!

2Q==


Atta boy, Trump!
 

Tambora

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It makes me sad that you like seeing world leaders act like children. And even more sad that there are probably many more out there that think like you.
You gotta have a sense of humor to get it.
It's hilarious when you see what he did there.
I got choked laughing so hard.
 
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