Trinity Proof Scriptures

[Aimiel]

You misquote the text ... by quite a bit.
Thomas didn't call Jesus his God. Thomas merely replied to Christ's demonstration that Thomas' God had raised Thomas' Lord from the dead by praising them BOTH.

There is NO indication that this is what he meant by what is written. "My Lord and my God," cannot be said to mean: "I now want to thank my Lord and God," It obviously means: "You are my Lord and my God!" I don't believe that ignoring his exclamation is being honest with yourself.

God's spirit/mind transforms our spirit. God's spirit indwells us by us learning God's spirit/thinking, and by a miraculous gift from God of His spirit. God's words/word define God, and therefore ARE God. God's words/word became a flesh and blood baby boy ... the direct descendant of Adam and Eve, Abraham, Judah, David .... through Mary. I argue against ANY untruth, and the tenets unique to trinity/oneness theories, are the "Poster Child" for untruth.

I still say that if one doesn't believe that Jesus is God, in The Flesh that they are missing the single over-running theme of the New Testament. It simply boggles my mind every time I run into anyone who doesn't believe that Christ is God, in The Flesh. :nono:

 

[7djengo7]

My claim and point you had an issue with was that I said 'only the Father Jehovah is called the Most high and Jesus is the Son of the Most high', you challenged this by asking if I base my beliefs on what Demons do or do not say. I then showed how not only demons teach what I initially showed but Angels too stated the very same thing!

Now you're saying that you don't believe any of the bible supports my claim??? This makes no sense since Luke 1:28-31 clearly supports my claim, namely that Jesus is the Son of the Most high. Also, find me a verse where it calls Jesus the most high, and good luck if you actually attempt this, since the bible never does.

If I'm wrong, prove it with scripture.

Your claim is that Jesus should not be called the Most High God. That is the claim you have pretended to base on what an unclean spirit spoke. Then, when I called you out on your foolishness, you turned around and denied that you have pretended to base your claim on what an unclean spirit spoke, and you said, "No, I base it on the Bible", and handed me another verse that ALSO doesn't provide any basis for your claim that Jesus should not be called the Most High God.

The fact is, your first resort, in attempting to prop up your falsehood, was to refer to what was spoken by an unclean spirit; you didn't even bother with trying to hide your true homage.

Why do you think Jesus should not be referred to by the phrase, "the Most High God"?
Why do you think Jesus should not be referred to by the phrase, "the man who was crucified at Calvary"?
Why do you think Jesus should not be referred to by the phrase, "one born in the Roman Empire, while Augustus was emperor"?

 

[7djengo7]

I too believe Jesus created all things, but with the exception of himself.

You believe that Jesus created all things except for himself, and you deny that Jesus is Jehovah. So, you believe that Jesus created Jehovah.

But, you claim that you worship Jehovah (Who, says you, created Jesus), and you despise the worship of Jesus. So, you worship what you consider to be the creature more than what you consider to be the creator. So, you're a rank idolater.

 

[musterion]

You believe that Jesus created all things except for himself, and you deny that Jesus is Jehovah. So, you believe that Jesus created Jehovah.

This'll be good, he's cornered.

 

[glorydaz]

Why not quote all 66 books?

Of course! Jesus Christ was GIVEN the power of God, DEMONSTRATED, the power of God, PROVES the power of God.
Jesus Christ was GIVEN the wisdom of God, DEMONSTRATED, the wisdom of God, SPOKE the wisdom of God.

Jesus isn't the ONLY man, who was given the wisdom, or power of God, or demonstrated, or spoke the wisdom, or power of God..... but he is certainly the BEST example of these things.

Not "given"........ but the Power and Wisdom of God. Don't trample on what is written.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[7djengo7]

I said 'only the Father Jehovah is called the Most high and Jesus is the Son of the Most high'

As an anti-Trinitarian, why do you modify the name 'Jehovah' by the phrase 'the Father'?

 

[Dartman]

Yep, he surely did.



Nope. He was addressing BOTH to Christ. That's what it says.

I can't help your unbelief. You'll have to repent of it.


The Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and the Word was (and is) God. That's what it says.

..

I'm not sure there is any way to overcome your blindness. The texts do not say what you claim they say.

Your answer is either dishonest, or you are incapable of setting aside your bias, and literally reading the verse.

And, this is a CLASSIC illustration of the techniques employed by most trinitarian/oneness defenders on the internet..

And, I empathize ...... it's got to be tough to be a trinitarian/oneness disciple!

You have a belief that isn't stated, explained or preached in the Scriptures, and which isn't consistent with God's creation,

All that's left are a few verses that do NOT say what you need them to say, but the verses merely are worded so that they COULD mean what you wish they meant, If the reader ignores the rest of Scripture, AND ignores God's Creation.

 

[Dartman]

What if I call you a hypocrite, a viper, a blind guide and a whitewashed tomb?

You would merely worsen the poor image you already have.

 

[Rosenritter]

To start with I'll give a little background

I am not a trinitarian, so don't believe Jesus is YHWH.

My reason for creating this thread isn't to debate if the trinity is true.

What I am asking is SHOULD certain scriptures be cited as trinity proof scriptures, when they have been proved to do no such thing countless times.

A few examples are

KJV 1 John 5: 7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

This is not in any early manuscript so is obviously a later addition to the text, so shouldn't be used as a proof text.

1 John 5:7 is certainly legitimate and from the original Greek text, the proving of which should have its own thread (if it does not already) but this is not necessarily a "Trinity proof" scripture because it is not solely claimed by Trinitarians. Tertullian is one of the earliest recorded Trinitarians, and he is on record arguing about the meaning of the passage against his perceived opponent Praxaeus, who (judging from Tertullian's words) would have been more of a "Oneness" or "Monarchist" understanding.

I have also seen (pro-Trinity) writers on KJV-Only sites point acknowledge that 1 John 5:7 was an inconvenience to Trinity at the time because it led support to Oneness interpretations, thus it would be readily excluded by both Trinity and Arian sides. I'm not able to find the examples right now, sorry for the lack of link.

1 John 5:7 doesn't contradict a Trinity stance, but it isn't rightly a proof. A proof doesn't allow itself to be used either way by different positions.

 

[Rosenritter]

But, you didn't say WHY it doesn't say that They're One in Being. Unless you give a reason that the Scriptures listed above DON'T prove The Trinity, you've nothing to argue and so, must either acquiesce or simply close your heart and mind to Truth as found in The Holy Scriptures.Isn't it obvious? The Trinity is clearly the only understanding that one can arrive at given an open mind and heart while reading The Bible.

I understand Jesus to be literally God in the flesh, worthy of worship, the same mind and character that created all things and not another, and I can see how "I and the Father are one" is not a proof of that. Supporting, yes, but not proof, because it can also be interpreted as "We are of one agreement and authority" which does not designate deity.

It so happens that I believe Jesus did mean it the sense of God-ship, but like many things he said in the gospels, it is said in a way that allows double meaning. It's because of that double-meaning that it doesn't prove that "Jesus is God" let alone a more detailed "Trinity" doctrine that would depend on first proving the former.

 

[Rosenritter]

My apologise Aimel. You are correct that only asserted the meaning of the text, and didn't provide evidence.
It just that in my experience with most decussions I have heard with trinitarians this scripture has been brought up, then debunked so many times, that I thought that most would agree that it is not talking about Jesus and the Father being One in being.

I am assuming you would agree with using this text then??

Allow me to clarify why this could in no way be a trinity proof scripture.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

A Greek word used here for 'one' (hen). So what does this 'one' mean? We can either assume it means oneness of being or oneness in unity. These are our two options. Read the surrounding verses and you'll see the context doesn't reveal which one it should be. Which is correct then?

On the Trinity perspective, if that was meant to be a Trinity proof then it is strange that he neglected its Third Person.

 

[Rosenritter]

I believe you have misunderstood they purpose of this thread.

I didn't create it to debate every trinity or anti trinity scripture.

I am basically asking trinitarians and non trinitarians which scriptures they think shouldn't be used in defense of the trinity.

Please let me know you thoughts on the verses I stated rather that just posting dozens of scriptures.

I thought the purpose was to establish which passages should not be used as proof of a Trinity. That is a bit different than asking which passages should not be used in defense of a Trinity.

I don't know of any passages that prove a Trinity, but if "Trinity" is supposed to be a reasonable model formed from evidence, then it might be defended with passages depending on what it is being defended against.

For example, 1 John 5:7 could be used as defense against an Arian position of "The Trinity is False because the Trinity says Jesus is God and Jesus is Not God" but not against a Oneness position that readily embraces Jesus is God (the passage is accepted by both positions.)

 

[Rosenritter]

First of all... who are you talking to?

In other words, you're asking trinitarians, who use the entire Bible, which states that He is triune, to state which verses say that He is not?

Never seen "Triune" in scripture, and never seen "Three in One" (the translation of Triune) in scripture either. You would make a better case for maintaining rational and reasonable doctrine if you acknowledge which passages DO support that particular doctrine and which are acknowledged as being less helpful.

Let me help by example. For example, I believe that the wicked will be burned up in final judgment, including witches, necromancers, and all that are an abomination. And I use the whole bible and accept it as inspired. But I acknowledge that the following passage does NOT prove (or even support)

Deuteronomy 18:10 KJV
(10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

While useful for the condemnation of witchcraft, and that passage does have "fire" in it but it doesn't prove the method or end results of the final judgment. There are thousands of irrelevant passages. Genesis 1:1 doesn't prove or lend support to that doctrine of final judgment either. It doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means that not every passage is relevant.

 

[Rosenritter]

There is a really good reason EVERYONE forgets that one! I think very few trinitarians consider this stretch to be viable "evidence".

That would be evidence but not proof. Do you acknowledge that evidence is not necessarily proof?

 

[Rosenritter]

------------

Dartman, I'd like to challenge you on something.

Back when I was in middle school, 8th grade, I believe, I was in math class trying to understand something, and I made the argument to my teacher, if I don't understand something, how can I remember/learn/know it.

My teacher, who was and probably still is far wiser than I am, told me that first you must have the knowledge of something, and then you can begin to understand it. I have kept this in mind since then, and if I'm being honest with you, I've seen that concept show up elsewhere as well throughout my life.

Here is my challenge to you.

Try to learn what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. Try to learn the ins and outs of the position. Then, once you know what the position is, or at least have a basic grasp of what it says, at that point, try to show how the position is flawed, if you can. That's assuming you haven't accepted it as your own position, of course.

If you don't have knowledge of a concept, how could you ever hope to show how it's wrong?

What a wonderful question.

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/1998/04/29/a-brief-definition-of-the-trinity/

Is that what it teaches? Why or why not?

 

[Dartman]

There is NO indication that this is what he meant by what is written. "My Lord and my God," cannot be said to mean: "I now want to thank my Lord and God," It obviously means: "You are my Lord and my God!"

No, it doesn't obviously mean anything, in fact, without the context it is impossible to discern the meaning of those 5 words.

Let me prove my point.

I answered, and said to Wendy; "my brother, and my dog".

Please tell me what I meant.

 

[Dartman]

That would be evidence but not proof. Do you acknowledge that evidence is not necessarily proof?

The issue isn't the difference between evidence and proof.
The issue is, the highly symbolic theory posted is so convoluted, that "I think very few trinitarians consider this stretch to be viable "evidence".

 

[genuineoriginal]

As a hater of the Holy Ghost, you obviously have some experience at lying

If the Holy Spirit was in you, you would know I don't hate the Holy Spirit.

 

[genuineoriginal]

the Jews understood what Jesus said ,which is why they picked up stones.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Isn't it amazing how the Jews that misunderstood just about everything Jesus said suddenly became Trinitarians?

 

[Rosenritter]

Done and done:

Spoiler

True Christians from the days of the Apostles to the present have believed that there is one God existing in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There are not three Gods but only one God.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not one-third God each, or parts of God, but are all fully God of one indivisible essence, power and eternity.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not three manifestations of one God. Each is completely equal, possessing the full divine nature.

When the Bible teaches that God is three Persons, it does not mean that there are three individuals “but only personal self-distinctions with the Divine essence, which is not only generically, but also numerically one.” So when cults say that Jesus was just a man or the first created being, they woefully err. They place their misconceptions of what God must be like above what the Bible clearly teaches. Admittedly, the doctrine of the trinity is hard to comprehend yet it is clearly taught in the Bible and therefore must be believed

To substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, six and only six points need to be demonstrated from Scripture:

1. There is only one true God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person (see discussion of “person” below).
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct subsistences from each other.

1. There is only one true God:

OT: Exod 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; Deut 4:35,39; 6:4; 10:14; 32:39; 33:26; Josh 2:11; 1Sam 2:2; 2Sam 7:22; 1Ki 8:23,60; 2Ki 5:15;1Chr 16:26; 17:20; Neh 9:6; Ps 18:31; 71:19; 86:8-10; 96:5; 113:4f; Isa 37:16,20; 43:10f; 44:6,8; 45:5f,14,18,21f; 46:5,9f; Jer 10:6-10; Hos 13:4; Zech 14:9; Mal 2:10.

NT: Mark 12:29,32; John 5:44; 17:3; 1Cor 8:4-6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5.

2. The Father is God:

OT: Deut 32:6; Ps 89:26; Isa 63:16; 64:8; Mal 1:6; 2:10.

NT: Matt 6:9; John 6:27; 20:17; Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:3; Eph 1:2; 4:6; 5:20; 6:23; Phil 1:2; 2:11; 4:20; Col 1:2; 3:17; 1Thes 1:1,3; 3:11,13; 2Thes 1:1f; 2:16; 1Tim 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Jude 1:1.

3. The Son is God:

A) Called God or Ascribed Deity:

OT: Gen 19:24; Ps 45:7; Isa 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5f; Zech 2:8-3:2; 12:1,10

NT: Matt 1:22f; John 1:1; 5:18; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:9; 9:5; Phil 2:5-9; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:3,8-12; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 5:20.

B) Possess the Attributes of God.

1) Personal: All of Jesus’ interactions with people in the Gospels are proof of His personhood (e.g, Matt 3:13-15; 4:18-22; 8:1-22; 9:1-38). Jesus is also specifically said to possess wisdom (Luke 2:52), a will (Luke 22:42), and a mind (1Cor 2:16; Phil 2:5).

2) Creator and Sustainer: John 1:3; Col 1:16f; Heb 1:2 (cp. Job 9:8; Isa 44:24).

3) Live Giver: John 1:4; 4:10-14; 5:21; 6:40, 44; 11:25; Acts 3:15; 1Cor 15:45; 1John 5:11; Rev 1:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Not applicable due to the incarnation. Jesus now has a real physical body.

5) Omnipresent: Matt 18:20; 28:20; John 1:48; 3:13; Eph 1:22f; 4:10.

6) Omniscient: Matt 9:4; 11:27; 12:25; Mark 2:8; 12:15; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17; John 2:23-25; 4:16-18; 16:30; 21:17; Rev 2:23.

7) Knows the Future: Matt 16:21; 17:22f; 20:17-19,22f; 24:1-25; 26:21-25,31-35; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 13:1-23; 14:27-30,72; Luke 9:22,44; 18:31-33; 21:5-24; 22:10-13; John 2:19; 6:64,70f; 13:11,36-38; 21:18f.

8) Omnipotent: Matt 28:18; Phil 3:20f; Rev 1:8; 3:7.

9) Sovereign: Dan 7:13f; Matt 17:24-27; 28:18; Acts 10:36; Eph 1:20-22; Heb 1:3.

10) King over all the earth/ King of kings: Psalm 45:1-7; Dan 7:13f; Matt 25:34,40; John 18:37; Heb 1:8; Rev 11:15; 17:14; 19:16.

11) Lord of all the earth/ Lord of lords: Matt 11:27; Phil 2:9-11; Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12; Rev 17:14; 19:16.

12) God over all false gods/ God of gods: John 10:31-39; Acts 17:18,31; 1Cor 8:5f.

13) Incomprehensible: Matt 11:27; Eph 3:19.

14) Eternal (The First and the Last/ The Alpha and Omega/ The Beginning and End): Isa 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; 17:5,24; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8,10f; 7:3; Rev 1:8,11,17f; 2:8; 11:15; 22:12-16.

15) Self-Existent (I Am/ The Living God): I Am! Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; 14:62; John 6:20; 8:24,58; 13:19; 18:5f,8 (Note: Some versions have “It is I” in these verses, but the literal phrase is “I Am!”) Other: John 5:26; 1Cor 15:45.

16) Immutable/ Faithful/ Worthy of Trust: Phil 2:24; 1Thes 5:24; 2Thes 3:3; 2Tim 2:13; Heb 1:8-12; 2:17; 3:2; 10:23; 13:8; Rev 3:14,17; 19:11.

17) Perfect/ Incomparable/ Awesome/ Great: Judg 13:6; Luke 13:32; John 6:68; Heb 2:10; 5:9; 12:2; 2Pet 1:16 (cp. Luke 9:43).

18) Good/ Goodness: John 7:12; 10:32; Acts 10:38; Eph 2:7.

19) Holy: Josh 5:13-15 (cp, Exod 3:5); Isa 53:9; Matt 26:59f; Luke 5:8; John 8:46; 2Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; Rev 1:17.

20) Righteous and Just: Zech 9:9; Matt 12:20; 27:19,24; Luke 18:8; 23:47; John 5:20; 7:18; Acts 3:14; 22:14; 1Cor 1:30; 1Tim 3:16; 2Tim 4:8; Heb 1:9; 1Pet 3:18; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 1:9; 2:29; 19:11.

21) Truth: Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14,32; John 1:14,17; 7:18; 8:40,45f; 14:6; 18:37; 2Cor 11:10; Eph 4:21; 1John 5:20; Rev 3:7,14; 19:11.

22) Light: Matt 4:16; 17:2; 24:27; Luke 1:78f; 2:32; 17:24; John 1:4,9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35f,46; Acts 9:3f; 22:6-11; 26:12-18; Eph 5:14; Rev 21:23.

23) Judge: Ps 2:7-9; Matt 16:27; 25:31-46 [cp. Ezek 34:17]; John 5:22-27; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom 2:16; 1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 5:10f; Eph 6:8; 2Tim 4:1,8; Jam 5:9; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 2:23; 19:11.

24) Fire: Matt 3:10-12; Luke 3:16f; 2Thes 1:7f; Rev 1:14 (cp. Dan 7:9); 19:12.

25) Wrath: Ps 2:12; Rev 6:15-17; 19:15.

26) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Matt 9:36; 14:14; 15:32; 20:28,34; Mark 1:41; 6:34; 8:2; Luke 7:13; John 1:14,17; 13:1; 15:9-13; Acts 15:11; Rom 5:21; 8:35; 16:20; 1Cor 16:23; 2Cor 5:14; 13:14; Gal 6:18; Eph 3:19; Phil 4:23; 1Thes 5:28; 2Thes 3:18; 1Tim 1:2; 2Tim 1:2,18; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:25; 2John 1:3; Jude 1:21; Rev 22:21.

27) Forgives Sin: Mark 2:5-11; Luke 7:47-50; Col 3:13; Jam 5:15.

28) Redeems/ Redeemer: Rom 3:24; 1Cor 1:30 Gal 3:13; 4:4f; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Titus 2:14; Heb 9:12-15; 1Pet 1:18f; Rev 5:9; 14:3f.

29) Saves/ Savior: Zech 9:9; Matt 1:21; 18:11; Luke 2:11; 9:56; 19:10; John 3:17; 4:42; 10:9; 5:34; 12:47; Acts 2:47; 4:12; 5:31; 13:23;16:30f; Rom 5:9f; 10:8-13; Eph 5:23; Phil 3:20; 1Tim 1:15; 2Tim 1:10; 2:10; 3:15; Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6; Heb 2:10; 7:25; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10.

30) Rock: Rom 9:33; 1Cor 10:4; 1Pet 2:7f.

31) Shepherd: Mic 5:4; Matt 25:32; John 10:11,14-16; Heb 13:20; 1Peter 2:25; 5:4; Rev 7:16f.

32) Father: Not applicable as Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

33) Glorious/ Wonderful: Judg 13:18; Isa 4:2; 9:6; 11:10; Matt 21:15; 25:31; Luke 13:17; Titus 2:13.

34) Hears and Answers Prayer: John 14:13f; Acts 7:59f; 2Cor 12:8f; 1John 5:13-15; Rev 5:8 (cp. 8:4).

35) Worthy of Worship and All Praise: Josh 5:13f; Matt 14:33; 21:9,16f; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Phil 2:10f; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 1:6; 2Peter 3:18; Rev 5:8-14. While it is true that some of these attributes could be said about people or angels, no person or angel possesses almost all of them as Jesus Christ does. Thus putting all of them together is strong proof Jesus is fully God.

C) Additional Attributes of Deity:
Controls the weather: Matt 14:30-33; Mark 4:36-41; (cp. Job 38:25-38; Ps 135:7).
Gives commandments: Matt 5:27f,31-48 (cp. Exod 20:1-17).
Fills the hungry soul: John 6:48-51 (cp. Ps 107:9).
Receives sacred service (Gr., latreuo): Rev 22:3 (cp. Matt 4:10).

D) Theophanies = Christophanies:
The NT teaches no on can see God (John 1:18; 6:46). But people did see the Lord in the OT (e.g., Isa 6:1-8). Appearances of the Lord in the OT are actually appearances of God the Son (John 12:37,41). It is God the Father that people cannot see (1Tim 6:16).

E) The Angel of the Lord and the Lord:
In the OT, the Angel of the Lord is both distinct from the Lord and identified with Him. The appearances of the Angel of the Lord are appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

Distinct subsistences (“persons”): 2Sam 24:16f; 1Chr 21:15f,27; Zech 1:12. Same Person: Gen 22:1f,11f,15f; Gen 28:10-22 (cp. 31:11-13); 48:15f (Note: “bless” is singular). Exod 3:2,4 Exod 13:21; 14:19. Exod 20:1f; Deut 1:6-8; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 6:11-21 (cp. vv.11f with v.14) Judg 13:21f. Hosea 12:3-5.

F) God and the Lamb: In the Revelation, God and the Lamb are distinct and from each other yet identified with each other. Rev 7:10,17; 21:22f; 22:1,3 (cp. Isa 60:19f).

G) OT Passages in NT:
Passages in the OT referring to God are quoted or alluded to in the NT as referring to the Son. Ps 8:2 / Matt 21:16. Ps 102:25-27 / Heb 1:10-12. Ps 130:8 / Matt 1:21. Isa 26:19; 60:1 / Eph 5:14. Isa 40:3/ Matt 3:3 Isa 43:10 / Acts 1:8. Isa 45:23 / Phil 2:10. Jer 2:13; 17:13 / John 4:13f; 7:37. Jer 9:24 / 2Cor 10:17f. Jer 17:10 / Rev 2:23. Joel 2:32 / Rom 10:13. Mal 3:1 / Mark 1:2.

4. The Holy Spirit is a Person capable of thought, will, and interaction with others.

A) Has a mind and a will. Rom 8:27; 1Cor 12:11.

B) Acts 13:1-5: Speaks, commands, and calls: verse 2. Refers to Himself with personal pronouns: “to Me” and “I” - verse 2. Sends out missionaries: verse 4.

C) Elsewhere in the Book of Acts:
Inspires Scripture: Acts 1:16.
Is lied to: Acts 5:3.
Bears witness: Acts 5:32.
Instructs: Acts 8:29.
Comforts: Acts 9:31.
Tells and sends: Acts 10:19f; 11:12.
Knows what is good: Acts 15:28.
Forbids: Acts 16:6f.
Testifies: Acts 20:23.
Appoints church officers: Acts 20:28.
Prophesies: Acts 28:25.

D) Elsewhere in the Bible:
Hovers: Gen 1:2 (cp. Deut 32:11).
Speaks: 2Sam 23:2; Ezek 2:2-3:14,24ff; 11:5-12; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 21:11; 28:25; 1Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7; Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:1,6,13,22; 14:13; 22:17.
Gives plans: 1Chr 28:11f.
Instructs: Neh 9:20.
Sends: Isa 48:16; Ezek 2:2f.
Grieves: Isa 63:10; Eph 4:30.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:21.
Leads: Matt 4:1; Mark 1:12; Luke 4:1; Rom 8:14.
Speaks for believers: Matt 10:19f.
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31f; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10.
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 14:26.
Witnesses: John 15:26; Heb 10:15-17; Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1John 5:6.
Assures, leads, bears witness, and enables: Rom 8:14-17.
Helps and makes intercession: Rom 8:26f (cp. v.34; 1Tim 2:5).
Loves: Rom 15:30.
Searches: 1Cor 2:10f.
Justifies: 1Cor 6:11.
Gives gifts: 1Cor 12:8-11; Heb 2:4.
Fellowships: 2Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1.
Reveals: Eph 3:5.
Instructs: 1Tim 4:1; Heb 9:8.
Is insulted: Heb 10:29.
Commands: Rev 22:17.

E) John 14:16: The Spirit is “another Counselor” (allos parakletos) besides Jesus (1John 2:1; the Greek word is also parakletos). Note also, allos indicates another of the same kind. It is distinct from heteros, which indicators another of a different kind (e.g., Gal 1:6f, “different” in v. 6 is heteros, “another” in v. 7 is allos). Since Jesus is a Person, the Holy Spirit must be of the same kind and thus a Person also.

5. The Holy Spirit is God:

A) Equated with God: Exod 29:45f; Haggai 2:5. 2Sam 23:2f Acts 5:3,4. Rom 5:5; 2Thes 3:5. 1Cor 12:6,11,18. 2Cor 3:17f.

B) Possesses the Attributes of God:

1) Personal: See previous section.

2) Creator: Gen 1:2b; Job 26:13; Ps 104:30.

3) Live Giver: Gen 2:7; Job 27:3; 33:4; Rom 8:2,11; 1Pet 3:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Self-evident.

5) Omnipresent: Numb 11:25f; Ps 139:7-10; Joel 2:28f; John 3:34; Acts 4:31; 5:32; 8:15-17; 10:44; 19:6; Rom 5:5; 8:9; 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; Gal 4:6; 2Tim 1:14.

6) Omniscient: Isa 43:10; 1Cor 2:10f.

7) Knows the Future: Luke 2:26; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 11:28; 20:22f; 21:11,33; 1Tim 4:1; 1Pet 1:11.

8) Omnipotent: Luke 1:35-37; Rom 15:19.

9) Eternal: Heb 9:14.

10) Good/ Goodness: Neh 9:20; Ps 143:10.

11) Holy: “Holy Spirit” appears 95 times. See also Rom 1:4.

12) Truth: John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13; 1John 5:6.

13) Fire: Acts 2:3f; Rev 4:5.

14) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Zech 12:10; Heb 10:29.

15) Glorious/ Wonderful: 2Cor 3:8; 1Peter 4:14.

16) Hears and Answers Prayer: Rom 8:26f; Eph 6:18; Jude 1:20. The number of attributes of God ascribed to the Spirit is not as all-encompassing as for the Son, but number is still significant and sufficient to establish His deity.

C) Additional Attributes of God:
Calls into ministry: Acts 13:2; 20:28.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:20f; Rev 2:7.
Gives eternal life: John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5.

D) The Temple of God = The Temple of the Holy Spirit:
The bodies of Christians are described as being the temple of God and as being the temple of the Holy Spirit since we are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is God. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; 2Cor 6:16; Eph 3:19; 5:18.

E) The Spirit's Words are Equated with God's Words: Lev 16:1-34 / Heb 9:7f. Isa 6:9f / Acts 28:25-27. Jer 31:33f / Heb 10:15f.

6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other:

A) In the OT:
Gen 1:1-3,26f; 11:7; 19:24; Neh 9:20; Ps 2:1-9; Prov 30:4; Isa 6:8; 48:16; 63:11; Dan 7:13f; Zech 2:8-3:2.

B) In the Gospels:
Matt 3:16; 4:1,6; 11:25-27; 12:32f; 14:23; 16:16f; 17:5; 22:44; 26:39,42; 27:46; 28:18f; Mark 1:1,8; 12:36; 13:32; 15:34; 16:19; Luke 4:18; 6:12; 11:13; 20:42f; 23:34,46; John 1:1f; 3:16-18,34-36; 5:19-23,26f,30f,36-38,43-45; 6:27,37-46; 8:17f; 11:41f: 13:1; 14:6,16f,23-31; 15:26; 16:13-16,25-28,32; 17:1-28; 20:17,21f.

C) In the Book of Acts:
2:22-36; 3:13-15,19f,26; 4:24-30; 7:55f; 10:34-42; 13:33-37; 15:8; 17:30f; 20:21.

D) In the Pauline Epistles:
Rom 1:1-9; 1Cor 1:1-9; 2:10f; 15:23-28; 2Cor 1:1-3; 2:14f; 3:3-6; 5:18-21; 13:14; Gal 1:1-5; 4:4-6; Eph 1:2-23; 2:1-10,18; 3:14-21; 4:4-6; 5:1f; 6:23; Phil 1:2,11; 2:5-11; Col 1:2f,19f; 2:2; 3:1; 1Thes 1:1,3; 4:8; 5:9; 2Thes 1:2; 2:13-17; 1Tim 1:1f; 2Tim 1:1f; 4:1; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:3.

E) In the General Epistles and The Revelation:
Heb 1:1-9,13; 2:9,17; 5:5-10; 7:25; 9:14,24; 10:5-13; 12:2; 13:20f; Jam 1:1; 1Pet 1:1-3,17-21; 2:4-6; 3:18,22; 5:10; 1John 1:3,7; 2:1; 4:7-10; 5:6,11; 2John 1:3,9; Jude 1:1,20f; Rev 1:1-6; 5:9f,13; 21:22f; 22:1,17.


Concluding thoughts and discussion:

Two references that are edifying reading:

1. Gerald Bray's http://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-God-Contours-Christian-Theology/dp/0830815317 The Doctrine of God

2. Robert Letham's http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Trinity-Scripture-History-Theology/dp/0875520006 The Holy Trinity


All the persons of the trinity are autotheos (God himself) and have their essence a se ipso (from he himself). That is, the second person of the Trinity is God by virtue of his own life; he does not receive that life from the Father. He only receives his Son-ness from the Father. Same with the Spirit. The Spirit is God a se ipso, but He is the Spirit from the Father and the Son. So, the three are all three God, and that on their own. The generation and procession have to do with the personal relations. There is a kind of order, but it is economic, not ontological. That's why we confess them the same in power and glory.

The only real apologetic is one that ends with the Christian worldview, which necessarily includes the Trinitarian view. To deny the Trinity is to deny the personness of God.

The Trinity is perhaps the singularly unique aspect of Christianity, and we find that the rivals of Christianity deny or ignore the Trinity. And even within Christianity, when we examine the heresies, the doctrine of the Trinity is usually the first thing denied. Denying the Trinity causes the definition of God to be diluted and His marks of personality to be erased. The Gnostics, Arians, Neoplatonists all worshipped a non-Trinitarian God—a god of “pure oneness”, without plurality of any kind. Of course, we ask, “A oneness of what?” “A unity of what?” Nothing could be said to answer these questions. To say anything in this “oneness” view suggests division, plurality, certainly at least between subject and predicate. Indeed, to say “God is x” creates a plurality between God and x. Hence, speaking of God at all is meaningless to these non-Trinitarian views, and God’s nature becomes “wholly other”—indescribable in human language since the human mind could not even grasp this blank oneness.

That said, the Unitarians of old would try to speak of God as the perfect unity of those things separated in creation. Yet, if God is defined simply in terms of creation, then God is relative to creation. These forms of anti-Trinitarianism lead to these effects—a “wholly other” God, rather than the Biblical sense of a transcendent God. It also leads to a God who is relative to His creation, rather than the Sovereign Lord. We end up with this blank “One” of the Moonbeam theology of New Agers, versus the absolute personality of the Scriptures. The Creator-creation distinction becomes a matter of degree rather than a difference of being. One need only look at Islam’s predestination doctrines to see the impersonal determinism versus the wise and good planning of the Scriptural God Almighty. Furthermore, within Islam, we find a god who can arbitrarily change his very nature, versus the character of the ever-abiding, dependably personal God of Scripture.

Unlike these non-Christian or Christian heresies, the Scripture has a very clear answer to the “A unity of what?” question—one unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we examine Scripture we cannot help but find that when Scripture is touting the unity of God, it cannot resist the naming of more than one person of the Trinity (see, 1 Cor. 8:4ff; Ephesians 4:4-6; John 17:3; Matthew 28:19ff). Now if you were a “oneness” proponent you would think that the authors of such passages would have been more careful to avoid confusing matters alluding to the Trinity in these contexts, no? Yet the penman of Scripture clearly thought otherwise. Why? Because the Trinity confirmed, rather than compromised, the unity of God. Indeed, God’s “oneness”, God’s unity, is precisely is a unity of three persons.

So what, then? Only with the Trinitarian worldview, where God is three and one, can God be described in personal terms without God being made relative to the world. Consider, 1 John 4:8, “…God is love.” What does that mean? Well, the non-Trinitarians will answer “love of the world”. An immediate problem arises. Apparently the divine attribute of Love depends on the existence of the world. Since the attributes of God and the essence of God are co-inherent, such a response is claiming that God Himself depends upon the world. Here we see the slippery slope to a “wholly revealed” God. All right, then should we not say that “love” is metaphorically related to something mysterious? Then here we see the slippery slope to a “wholly other” God. Thus we encounter the heresies of Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, and Arianism. For if God is simply “One”, He is either “wholly other” or God is relative to the world—or somehow is both.

The Trinitarian God is the only God that an apologetic should be focused upon. And without this God there is no truth, rationality, etc. (meaning), therefore God exists. The only legitimate theistic proof is reduced to the proof from the possibility of predication. That is, God exists, because without God it is impossible to reason, to think, or even attach a predicate to a subject (predication). Any proof that results in making God less than something He is is no proof at all. We should not use apologetics that simply attempt to prove that God is an intelligent designer, a moral legislator, or a first cause. The only proof is one that demonstrates the God of Scripture—transcendental, immanent, absolute personality, sovereign, Trinitarian.

We should never mount an apologetic that suggests we can reason, predicate, examine probabilities, apart from God. The Scripture is clear that there is no neutral ground upon which the believer and the non-believer may stand, given the Scripture’s clear teachings on the depravity of man.

When considering the divinity of Christ, there are many heresies related to Trinitarian doctrine. These many heresies related to the Godhead were denounced by the http://www.reformed.org/documents/chalcedon.html Chalcedonian Definition with respect to the Incarnation, and there is not a single orthodox church, Catholic or Protestant that denies the Chalcedonian Definition. The many heresies so denied by the Chalcedonian Definition can be seen by examining what the Incarnation was not. It was not...

1. a denial that Christ was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
3. a denial that Christ had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
4. a denial of a distinct person in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
7. two distinct persons (Nestorianism);
8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
9. that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
10. that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
11. that Jesus existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).

Summarizing, the Bible teaches God is in some way “three” and in some way “one.” So God is a “tri-unity” or more simply “Trinity.” The doctrine of the Trinity explains God’s three-in-oneness without ending up in a logical contradiction. A simple statement, but not perfectly accurate, of this doctrine is, “God is three Persons in one essence.” One what, three whos. The term “person” refers to a self-conscious or rational subsistence capable of thought, will (volition), and interaction with others; an actual self or individual personality (adapted from Erickson, p.127, Webster’s, American).

A divine person is not the same thing as a human individual. This is however, the closest analogy we have in our finite experience. Whenever we start to conceive of God, we must resort to the via negativa. So, while we can think of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct modes of subsistence or as distinct persons, we must deny the separateness these distinct modes of subsistence will always imply when it comes to the human analogy. We must think of God as one in essence, but we must deny that this unity precludes a diversity of modes of subsistence, again as it would with the human analogy. When speaking of the mind, like will, both are attributes of the nature and are not personal distinctions. God is of one will, and one mind. Each person of the Godhead, if you will, has access to, use of, the entire extend of the mind. Yet, in the ultimate sense, we cannot make these separations for God does not have a mind or a will--God is His mind and His will.

The term essence means, “The basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing; substance” (Webster’s). “The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something… The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things” (American). So the terms “person” and “essence” are not identical; as such, there is no logical contradiction in the explanation of the doctrine of the Trinity of God being three Persons in one essence.

As was stated at the beginning of this document, to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, six and only six points need to be demonstrated from Scripture:

1. There is only one true God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person (see discussion of “person” above).
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other.

For anyone who takes the time to prayerfully study what has been presented, the above conclusively meets the burden of demonstrating the Biblical Trinitarian view of God.

The above has been adapted with a tip of the hat to the following sources: Bray, Letham, Turretin, Shedd, Erickson, Reymond, Bavinck, Berkhof, Zeolla, Samples, Van Til

AMR

For me your proof seems to fail on point six. Yes, you cited a million verses, but when I pulled out several as tests they didn't do what you claimed they did.

"6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct subsistences from each other."

Question: "distinct subsistences?" Not a bible word, so using an online definition, "the action or fact of maintaining or supporting oneself at a minimum level." Does Father or Son or Spirit exist apart from others, or can they? Yet what was being used as proof were passages like John 1:1 and Titus 1:4.

John 1:1 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Titus 1:4 KJV
(4) To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

John 1:1 doesn't establish anything distinct but more towards the less distinct, and the slew of passages in the sense of Titus 1:4 can also be read in the sense of equivalences rather than distinctions (in the same sense that "Lord and Savior" does not mean different Lords and Saviors).

More ever, under the same (or greater) strength of proofs that you used to establish God as the Father in the Old Testament, rather than showing distinction, it also does say that the child that is born (Jesus) is God and the Father.

32) Father: Not applicable as Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Maybe you meant something else by "distinct subsistences" but it doesn't always seem so distinct, nor does it seem that the Father or Son or Spirit subsist apart from each other.