Trinity Evidence False

[Squeaky]

Hi Squeaky,

Actually it wasn't. Because that isn't what the verse actually says.

It says: "This command I have received from the Father."

It doesn't say that the power to do so was received from the Father.

I think you might be going beyond what is written right there.



Can you please show me where that is written?

Unless you can show me somewhere where that is written I will have to conclude that even though you say that believers aren't supposed to believe things that aren't written, you don't really live that way.

What is actually written in John Chapter 1 is that Jesus is the Word of God and that He made everything.

"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

Since it is logically impossible for Jesus to make Himself.... He is not a created being.

He is God.

And, therefore, He has always had the power to raise Himself from the dead. He never lacked that power and He didn't need the Father to give it to Him.



Notice the word "command".



Oh I agree that the Apostles received that gift from God.

It is sort of interesting that they haven't bothered to raise themselves like Jesus did, though.

I would think that they might do that if they could. Walk through walls, rise into the air, appear randomly,...that'd be pretty cool stuff.

Of course, they can't do that because God didn't give them that power.

But Jesus, as God, has that power.

So He did it.

Jesus is so cool!

Peace.

I said


The Word tells us that all the works that were done through Jesus were done by God.

John 8:28-29
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
(NKJ)

John 10:25-27
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
(NKJ)

John 14:12
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
(NKJ)

2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

John 5:30
30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
(NKJ)

John 14:10
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
(NKJ)

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I said


The Word tells us that all the works that were done through Jesus were done by God.

John Chapter 1 tells us that Jesus is God.

Since everything was made through Him, but He couldn't have made Himself...He isn't a created being.

If He is an uncreated being....then He is God.

John 8:28-29
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
(NKJ)

This verse doesn't say God gave Jesus power.

What Jesus is saying makes sense. It is because of the intimacy and oneness of the Trinity that Jesus can say He does nothing of Himself. Because His self is never separated from the other two persons of the Trinity.

His thoughts, will, and actions are perfect and perfectly united to the thoughts, wills, and actions of the Father and the Spirit. So that they have a perfect unity.

John 10:25-27
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
(NKJ)

John 14:12
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
(NKJ)

2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

None of these verses say what you claimed. That Jesus was once without power and God had to give it to Him.

They just don't say that. I think you are again going beyond what is written.

John 5:30
30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
(NKJ)

Same as above. Jesus can do nothing of Himself because He is never disconnected from the Trinity. They are perfect and their works and wills are inseparable.

Jesus can only do the perfect will of the Father always (as He did), if He Himself has that same perfect will.

Which He does. Which makes Him God.

That is not true of us mere human beings.

John 14:10
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
(NKJ)

Jesus' works and the Father's works are inseparable because Jesus' will and the Father's will are inseparable.

Because they are both divine persons.

That is why Jesus will say in the very previous verse, John 14:9 that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father."

It think it is still quite a big stretch to say that everything that Jesus did that we claim made Him God the rest of us can do to.

We can't.

That simply isn't reality.

Peace.

 

[Squeaky]

John Chapter 1 tells us that Jesus is God.

Since everything was made through Him, but He couldn't have made Himself...He isn't a created being.

If He is an uncreated being....then He is God.



This verse doesn't say God gave Jesus power.

What Jesus is saying makes sense. It is because of the intimacy and oneness of the Trinity that Jesus can say He does nothing of Himself. Because His self is never separated from the other two persons of the Trinity.

His thoughts, will, and actions are perfect and perfectly united to the thoughts, wills, and actions of the Father and the Spirit. So that they have a perfect unity.



None of these verses say what you claimed. That Jesus was once without power and God had to give it to Him.

They just don't say that. I think you are again going beyond what is written.



Same as above. Jesus can do nothing of Himself because He is never disconnected from the Trinity. They are perfect and their works and wills are inseparable.

Jesus can only do the perfect will of the Father always (as He did), if He Himself has that same perfect will.

Which He does. Which makes Him God.

That is not true of us mere human beings.



Jesus' works and the Father's works are inseparable because Jesus' will and the Father's will are inseparable.

Because they are both divine persons.

That is why Jesus will say in the very previous verse, John 14:9 that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father."

It think it is still quite a big stretch to say that everything that Jesus did that we claim made Him God the rest of us can do to.

We can't.

That simply isn't reality.

Peace.

I said
Here is the part your missing on. The word "through" means reason for. The reason for God creating everything else after Jesus was Jesus.

1223 dia (dee-ah');

a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):

KJV-- after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause). ..fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
***. Dia. See 2203.

 

[Bright Raven]

I said
Here is the part your missing on. The word "through" means reason for. The reason for God creating everything else after Jesus was Jesus.

1223 dia (dee-ah');

a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):

KJV-- after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause). ..fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
***. Dia. See 2203.

Jesus is not created, John 1:1, 1 John 1:1-2
A creator cannot be part of the creation. Colossians 1:16

 

[Squeaky]

Jesus is not created, John 1:1, 1 John 1:1-2
A creator cannot be part of the creation. Colossians 1:16

I said
Read the definition of "through". Jesus wasn't a part of the creation. God the Father done all the creating. And He done it for Jesus. God put stumbling blocks in scripture. And John 1-1 is one of them stumbling blocks. From the beginning until 1611 the Word was always called an "It".

The KJV was taken from all these versions. The 1611 KJV was the one who added "He" in place of "IT". The He was added to give the Word authority. God is neither male nor female and we call Him a "He". The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female and we call Him a "He". He is a Spiritual title of authority. And the KJV wanted to give the Word(verses) the same title of authority. It was never meant to say that Jesus is the Word. The Word came through Jesus. And the Word can control flesh or become flesh.

Tyndale 1534:
Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men

Bishops 1568:
Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,

Geneva 1587:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.

And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

Its easy to prove Jesus is not the Word of God. The Word came through Jesus from God.

John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

John 12:48-50
48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-- the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
(NKJ)

Mark 13:23
23 "But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
(NKJ)

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I said
Here is the part your missing on. The word "through" means reason for. The reason for God creating everything else after Jesus was Jesus.

Hey Squeaky,

Here's the part that I think you are missing on.

You believe Jesus is a created being. (you said above: "The reason for God creating everything else after Jesus...."

If Jesus is a created being, than He is a creature and He is not God.

Based on our earlier conversation about only believing things that are written, my question for you is:

Where is it written that Jesus is a created being?

1223 dia (dee-ah');

a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):

KJV-- after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause). ..fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
***. Dia. See 2203.

Just my opinion but if we get it wrong about Jesus, it doesn't matter what we get right.

So was Jesus created and, therefore, a creature....or is He uncreated, and therefore God?

Peace.

 

[Squeaky]

Hey Squeaky,

Here's the part that I think you are missing on.

You believe Jesus is a created being. (you said above: "The reason for God creating everything else after Jesus...."

If Jesus is a created being, than He is a creature and He is not God.

I said
Your going to get in a lot of trouble with that kind of logic. Jesus was created even before the angels and they were created. And they are NOT creatures.

 

[Mr. 5020]

Where does Scripture indicate that Jesus was created?

 

[Squeaky]

Where does Scripture indicate that Jesus was created?

I said
Well hello numbers. It should be easy to see that there was no one born before man on earth. So firstborn over all creation, is created first over all creation.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)

 

[drbrumley]

I said


The Word tells us that all the works that were done through Jesus were done by God.

That should have given you your first clue...

 

[drbrumley]

I said
Well hello numbers. It should be easy to see that there was no one born before man on earth. So firstborn over all creation, is created first over all creation.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)

Conveniently not mentioning verse 16 huh Squeakster...

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

 

[Squeaky]

That should have given you your first clue...

I said
It does plus what Jesus said. That the Father is the only true God.


John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)


And that I have the very same Father that He does. And I have the very same God that He does.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

 

[Squeaky]

Conveniently not mentioning verse 16 huh Squeakster...

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

I said
I check the context very closely.

Col 1:12-16
12 giving thanks to the Father(God) who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He(Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His(Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Father) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Father).
(NKJ)

 

[beameup]

TRINITY EVIDENCE FALSE
Everything that the trinitarians claims makes Jesus God. Are the same things we can do also. And it doesnt make us God. Trinitarians have tried to form a belief on circumstantial verses, not factual verses. And they base their belief on principles that are not even in the Word of God. A Believer bases all their beliefs on what is written, not on what is not written.

It is the job of the Holy Spirit to reveal to you who Jesus is.
It looks like, so far, He has failed in this effort. :burnlib:

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. - 1 John 2:23

 

[drbrumley]

I said
I check the context very closely.

Col 1:12-16
12 giving thanks to the Father(God) who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He(Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His(Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Father) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Father).
(NKJ)

Yeah, [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] says the same thing, but yall don't.

 

[drbrumley]

I said
I check the context very closely...

Well, no, you didn't in this passage

Col 1:12-16
12 giving thanks to the Father(God) who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He(Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His(Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Jesus).
(NKJ)

Fixed it for ya!

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I said
Your going to get in a lot of trouble with that kind of logic. Jesus was created even before the angels and they were created. And they are NOT creatures.

Nope. No trouble that I can see so far.

Jesus wasn't created at all.

And I disagree. Angels most certainly ARE creatures.

They were created (as you stated above) and that makes them creatures.

They are not HUMAN creatures, or ANIMAL creatures.

They are pure spirit creatures...but creatures, nonetheless.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I said
Well hello numbers. It should be easy to see that there was no one born before man on earth. So firstborn over all creation, is created first over all creation.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)

Firstborn over all creation does not mean first created.

In ancient Israel, the term "first born" was used to designate a place of distinction and a position of preeminence.

The Colossians were having a bit of trouble with being Angel worshippers so early on in Paul's letter to them he emphasizes Jesus' preeminence over all of creation including over all of the Angels.

That doesn't mean Jesus was created.

This idea of preeminence can be seen 3 verses later in Colossians 1:18: "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Peace.





That's

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I said
It does plus what Jesus said. That the Father is the only true God.


John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

God the Father is the only True God. What Jesus said is, of course true.

And Jesus Christ is the only True God.

The Doctrine of the Trinity doesn't say that there is more than one True God.

It states that since the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, there is three persons in the One True God.

And that I have the very same Father that He does. And I have the very same God that He does.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

Jesus Christ has two natures. One divine, one human. Sometimes He says things from His divinity (like, "Your sins are forgiven you.") and sometimes He says things from His human nature (like my God and your God.)

There is a difference.

Peace.

 

[Squeaky]

Firstborn over all creation does not mean first created.

In ancient Israel, the term "first born" was used to designate a place of distinction and a position of preeminence.

The Colossians were having a bit of trouble with being Angel worshippers so early on in Paul's letter to them he emphasizes Jesus' preeminence over all of creation including over all of the Angels.

That doesn't mean Jesus was created.

This idea of preeminence can be seen 3 verses later in Colossians 1:18: "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Peace.





That's

I said
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree.