Total Depravity, Totally Refuted

[Robert Pate]

Calvinist want us to believe that man is so depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel. If that were true, which it is not, then God would be unjust. This doctrine is an insult to the Holy Spirit, whose job is to convict people of their need for Jesus Christ and his Gospel. It is true that man is a total sinner, but that does not mean that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.

What happened to Adam and Eve in the fall?

What did they lose? Did they lose their ability to reason? Of course not. What they lost was their relationship with God. They did not lose their free will. If one has the ability to sin, one has the ability to exercise his free will. Cain by his own free will slew his brother Abel, which proves that man still had the ability to exercise his free will. Unless you want to believe that God made Cain kill his brother Abel, which not only makes God unjust, but makes him a participant in the murder of Abel.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter stood up and preached the Gospel for the very first time. What was the results? 8,000 Jews heard and believed the Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. The Gospel gave birth to the New Testament church. Some of those that heard Peter's Gospel had participated in the crucifixion of Christ.

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Therefore let all of the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ" Acts 2:23 also Acts 2:36.

Now are we to believe that those who crucified Christ were God's people, predestinated to be saved from the foundation of the world? The elect. In other words, God chose those who crucified Christ to be his people?

Calvinist also want us to believe that the apostle Paul traveled over 10,000 miles by boat, donkey and on foot, preaching the Gospel to the pagan Gentiles for nothing. Why should he endure all of that pain and suffering if God has already determined who is going to be saved and who is to be lost? If Paul and the other apostles believed that they never would have risked their lives for the sake of the Gospel.

All of the apostles except for John died violent deaths because of their faith in Christ and his Gospel. Calvinist would has us believe that all of that was a waste, because God has already predetermined who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost. If it is true that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who is going to be lost, then who needs the Gospel? Who needs anything, including Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

 

[nikolai_42]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:6-8

Why didn't the Pharisees come to Jesus if they had not only free will but also the scriptures?

 

[nikolai_42]

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:2-8

How many people are knowingly and willingly storing up wrath for themselves? How many people think they are actually pretty good? Where does that goodness get them? Is it just a failure to reason properly that has them where they are before God? Or is it something more insidious? Something deceptive?

Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Corinthians 4:1-4

 

[dodge]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:6-8

Why didn't the Pharisees come to Jesus if they had not only free will but also the scriptures?

The answer is in the verse you quoted.

They would NOT trust Jesus and be born again.

 

[nikolai_42]

The answer is in the verse you quoted.

They would NOT trust Jesus and be born again.

Yes...but why not? Because they chose not to? Because they reasoned incorrectly? Was it a logical error that led to unbelief?

 

[beloved57]

Pate

Calvinist want us to believe that man is so depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.

He can't, not till man is saved can hear and believe the Gospel. The Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

 

[Robert Pate]

Pate



He can't, not till man is saved can hear and believe the Gospel. The Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

All are born into the world as lost.

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings life.

Those that hear and believe are born again.

 

[dodge]

Yes...but why not? Because they chose not to? Because they reasoned incorrectly? Was it a logical error that led to unbelief?

Matt 15:14 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

The Pharisees would not live up to what they taught. They were so overly concerned with the externals that they neglected the "weightier matters of the law" and the simple truths about man and God. When their own Messiah had appeared in Israel they were so blinded by their observances and the minute details that they completely missed Him.

Jesus used the exact words of Isaiah, their great prophet, to describe their hypocrisy. Notice the quote from Isaiah 29:13:

Mark 7:5-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

http://www.bible-history.com/pharisees/PHARISEESJesus_and_the_Pharisees.htm

 

[nikolai_42]

Matt 15:14 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

The Pharisees would not live up to what they taught. They were so overly concerned with the externals that they neglected the "weightier matters of the law" and the simple truths about man and God. When their own Messiah had appeared in Israel they were so blinded by their observances and the minute details that they completely missed Him.

Jesus used the exact words of Isaiah, their great prophet, to describe their hypocrisy. Notice the quote from Isaiah 29:13:

Mark 7:5-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

http://www.bible-history.com/pharisees/PHARISEESJesus_and_the_Pharisees.htm

In the broader sense, I'm just trying to counter Mr. Pate's argument that men are not totally depraved but can - in their fallen state - respond to the gospel of their own accord. He even agrees that the Holy Spirit must convict men before any spiritual life can be had. The Pharisees were indeed blind leaders - but why? What blinded them? Can they overcome their own blindness? Isaiah's message was one of failure from a human perspective. He was to prophesy to the end that Israel would be blind, deaf and dumb. It was Jesus' ministry to open the eyes of the blind and set the captives free :

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isaiah 42:6-7

God promised salvation to His people, but He also promised (through the prophesying of Isaiah) to make the people deaf and blind. That was the inception of Isaiah's prophetic ministry in Isaiah 6. But later on he declares that they are already deaf and blind. He tells them just how lost they are. Even as the Lord's chosen - those who were chosen to bear His word - they didn't partake in what they were the bearers of. So this is all the Lord's doing. It has to be or they would never return.

I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.
Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?
Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Isaiah 42:15-21

The chapter closes with what seems to me to be a pretty good description of total depravity (at least to my understanding) :

But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.
Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.
Isaiah 42:22-25

Their blindness is punishment. It was the Lord that did it. Indeed, the teachers of Israel bore a great responsibility.

But to this specific point, there seems to me to be a very clear reason why they were blind. It was well beyond anything they had immediate control over. It went to something in their very nature :

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:38-40

They had the scriptures - even went to them for teaching - but they didn't believe them. They rested on them but they did not go where the scriptures pointed. Not because of some logical problem or because of some conscious resistance to the truth, but because they simply couldn't. They were blind and unbelieving. The only way out of that is by being given spiritual life :

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:44-45

There was (and is) a prerequisite to coming to Jesus - and it isn't simply reading the scriptures. It is at a level only God can reach. This isn't about free will - that will is bound to whatever its master may be...

 

[dodge]

In the broader sense, I'm just trying to counter Mr. Pate's argument that men are not totally depraved but can - in their fallen state - respond to the gospel of their own accord. He even agrees that the Holy Spirit must convict men before any spiritual life can be had. The Pharisees were indeed blind leaders - but why? What blinded them? Can they overcome their own blindness? Isaiah's message was one of failure from a human perspective. He was to prophesy to the end that Israel would be blind, deaf and dumb. It was Jesus' ministry to open the eyes of the blind and set the captives free :

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isaiah 42:6-7

God promised salvation to His people, but He also promised (through the prophesying of Isaiah) to make the people deaf and blind. That was the inception of Isaiah's prophetic ministry in Isaiah 6. But later on he declares that they are already deaf and blind. He tells them just how lost they are. Even as the Lord's chosen - those who were chosen to bear His word - they didn't partake in what they were the bearers of. So this is all the Lord's doing. It has to be or they would never return.

I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.
Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?
Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Isaiah 42:15-21

The chapter closes with what seems to me to be a pretty good description of total depravity (at least to my understanding) :

But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.
Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.
Isaiah 42:22-25

Their blindness is punishment. It was the Lord that did it. Indeed, the teachers of Israel bore a great responsibility.

But to this specific point, there seems to me to be a very clear reason why they were blind. It was well beyond anything they had immediate control over. It went to something in their very nature :

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:38-40

They had the scriptures - even went to them for teaching - but they didn't believe them. They rested on them but they did not go where the scriptures pointed. Not because of some logical problem or because of some conscious resistance to the truth, but because they simply couldn't. They were blind and unbelieving. The only way out of that is by being given spiritual life :

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:44-45

There was (and is) a prerequisite to coming to Jesus - and it isn't simply reading the scriptures. It is at a level only God can reach. This isn't about free will - that will is bound to whatever its master may be...

Jhn 5:47
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Calvinist total depravity and unconditional election, especially the latter, simply clash with all scripture where we are obligated to respond to God properly, and I've wondered how the TULIP Calvinist's God is seen as sane, the God in the Bible, from cover to cover, exhorting and demanding men to repent, to choose righteousness, to turn from sin, or face the consequences of making wrong choices.

If totally depraved, in the sense of an utter inability to choose and make right decisions (as opposed to all being guilty of sin in the flesh, which we would all agree), you have this situation of a God in the Bible, as if, demanding a wolf choose the plate with broccoli on it, as opposed to the one with red meat, and, in doing so, wasting His efforts, just staging some play, some fiction, with broccoli a prop. Their God is in stark contradiction of the God who demands we make right choices, their God actually a God that makes no sense, asking robots to change their programming. When you search out all the implications, it's just silliness that mainly mangles the concept of God's omniscience, His foreknowledge, as well as misunderstanding predestination involves God's plan, not the individual's fate, preordained.

I must say, though, I don't hear people in the real Christian world conflicted over this, just something that seems to rage as an issue on this message board. I can't recall the last sermon I've heard over Calvinism. It seems a lot like the Catholics here, still fighting the Reformation, when I don't know of a Protestant congregation that's even talking about them. Same with Calvin. The point is, it seems pretty futile to debate with people who are steeped in some -ism of man, whether Popes or Calvin, as they're thoroughly brainwashed to where they will even obscure plain scripture. The pattern is that people prize the doctrine of the man first and foremost, then seek to pervert scripture to that doctrine(s), not the other way around, as it should be. It's a huge mistake to read scripture with prejudice, as opposed to attacking it as a blank slate, seeking solely what God has to say, and in contextual harmony, regardless what you want to believe, especially regardless this.

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Isaiah 55

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Nang]

Calvinist total depravity and unconditional election, especially the latter, simply clash with all scripture where we are obligated to respond to God properly, and I've wondered how the TULIP Calvinist's God is seen as sane, the God in the Bible, from cover to cover, exhorting and demanding men to repent, to choose righteousness, to turn from sin, or face the consequences of making wrong choices.

Here is a Reformer's answer:

The bolded above is reiteration of God's Law, given to man (Adam) prior to the fall. This law was never nullified because of the fall, and so all of Scripture repeats the original commands. "Believe God's Words to live, and turn away from sin to not die." This message from God has never altered. (Genesis 2:16-17)

But due to the disobedience and fall of man, no person born of Adam has the capacity to live or find salvation by abiding by these commands. Why? Because the human nature, mind, and heart of every person is corrupted by sin and guilt; thus every person has been enslaved to serving only the devil and sin. "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified in His sight . . " Romans 3:20a

The only way life and salvation can be obtained by fallen men, is through a Mediator; a Substitute; a Savior. That is why God promised and gave Eve hope in childbirth, that from her a "Seed" would be sent into the world by God to remedy the human fall into slavery to sin and the devil. (Genesis 3:15)

This Mediator/Savior came as promised, in the fullness of time, from the womb of a woman, under the Law, to do for men what they could not do for themselves. He, being sinless, kept the Law perfectly. Jesus Christ exhibited faith in God's Words through His obedience unto death, and in His death, paid the penalty for sin by dying the death of many ". . so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:21

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19

So with all due respect, you are incorrect to say the doctrines of Total Depravity and Election are not biblical, as this brief example demonstrates.

When you search out all the implications, it's just silliness that mainly mangles the concept of God's omniscience, His foreknowledge, as well as misunderstanding predestination involves God's plan, not the individual's fate, preordained.

What do you consider "silly" in what I posted above?

How does this Reformed position deny any attributes of God? Just the opposite: Reformers are the staunchest defenders of all the holy attributes of God against those (on this site) who are quick to deny His Immutability, Omniscience, Omnipotence, etc.

And the doctrine of Predestination has always been believed and taught by those who live by faith in the Covenant of Grace. For the promise of everlasting life in the Savior's heavenly Kingdom is the core of the promise of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. From the days of Seth to the present, there have always been men gifted with faith to believe their destiny is to be found only in God; not in this world. Many, many saints believed and preached this truthful/Scriptural doctrine of predestination, prior to John Calvin's day.

These are historical and biblical beliefs, and not just something recent or new, like Dispensationalism and Open Theism.

The new guys on the block resist the established historical faith of the saints; thus the reason for so much discussion between the old and new on this site.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinist want us to believe that man is so depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel. If that were true, which it is not, then God would be unjust. This doctrine is an insult to the Holy Spirit, whose job is to convict people of their need for Jesus Christ and his Gospel. It is true that man is a total sinner, but that does not mean that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.

What happened to Adam and Eve in the fall?

What did they lose? Did they lose their ability to reason? Of course not. What they lost was their relationship with God. They did not lose their free will. If one has the ability to sin, one has the ability to exercise his free will. Cain by his own free will slew his brother Abel, which proves that man still had the ability to exercise his free will. Unless you want to believe that God made Cain kill his brother Abel, which not only makes God unjust, but makes him a participant in the murder of Abel.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter stood up and preached the Gospel for the very first time. What was the results? 8,000 Jews heard and believed the Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. The Gospel gave birth to the New Testament church. Some of those that heard Peter's Gospel had participated in the crucifixion of Christ.

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Therefore let all of the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ" Acts 2:23 also Acts 2:36.

Now are we to believe that those who crucified Christ were God's people, predestinated to be saved from the foundation of the world? The elect. In other words, God chose those who crucified Christ to be his people?

Calvinist also want us to believe that the apostle Paul traveled over 10,000 miles by boat, donkey and on foot, preaching the Gospel to the pagan Gentiles for nothing. Why should he endure all of that pain and suffering if God has already determined who is going to be saved and who is to be lost? If Paul and the other apostles believed that they never would have risked their lives for the sake of the Gospel.

All of the apostles except for John died violent deaths because of their faith in Christ and his Gospel. Calvinist would has us believe that all of that was a waste, because God has already predetermined who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost. If it is true that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who is going to be lost, then who needs the Gospel? Who needs anything, including Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

Good post.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Here is a Reformer's answer:

The bolded above is reiteration of God's Law, given to man (Adam) prior to the fall. This law was never nullified because of the fall, and so all of Scripture repeats the original commands. "Believe God's Words to live, and turn away from sin to not die." This message from God has never altered. (Genesis 2:16-17)

But due to the disobedience and fall of man, no person born of Adam has the capacity to live or find salvation by abiding by these commands. Why? Because the human nature, mind, and heart of every person is corrupted by sin and guilt; thus every person has been enslaved to serving only the devil and sin. "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified in His sight . . " Romans 3:20a

The only way life and salvation can be obtained by fallen men, is through a Mediator; a Substitute; a Savior. That is why God promised and gave Eve hope in childbirth, that from her a "Seed" would be sent into the world by God to remedy the human fall into slavery to sin and the devil. (Genesis 3:15)

This Mediator/Savior came as promised, in the fullness of time, from the womb of a woman, under the Law, to do for men what they could not do for themselves. He, being sinless, kept the Law perfectly. Jesus Christ exhibited faith in God's Words through His obedience unto death, and in His death, paid the penalty for sin by dying the death of many ". . so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:21

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19

So with all due respect, you are incorrect to say the doctrines of Total Depravity and Election are not biblical, as this brief example demonstrates.




What do you consider "silly" in what I posted above?

How does this Reformed position deny any attributes of God? Just the opposite: Reformers are the staunchest defenders of all the holy attributes of God against those (on this site) who are quick to deny His Immutability, Omniscience, Omnipotence, etc.

And the doctrine of Predestination has always been believed and taught by those who live by faith in the Covenant of Grace. For the promise of everlasting life in the Savior's heavenly Kingdom is the core of the promise of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. From the days of Seth to the present, there have always been men gifted with faith to believe their destiny is to be found only in God; not in this world. Many, many saints believed and preached this truthful/Scriptural doctrine of predestination, prior to John Calvin's day.

These are historical and biblical beliefs, and not just something recent or new, like Dispensationalism and Open Theism.

The new guys on the block resist the established historical faith of the saints; thus the reason for so much discussion between the old and new on this site.

So Nang holds herself up as one of the "Old Guard" of truth sayers. Isn't that quaint? She may follow the false doctrines of Calvinism, but, at least she has her pride to show off as some sort of "Congressional Medal of Honor."

 

[beloved57]

All are born into the world as lost.

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings life.

Those that hear and believe are born again.

You can preach the Gospel all day and night to a lost person, its hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

 

[Robert Pate]

You can preach the Gospel all day and night to a lost person, its hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

You are apparently one of the lost. You have no understanding of what Christ has accomplished on the behalf of fallen man.

 

[patrick jane]

Calvinist want us to believe that man is so depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel. If that were true, which it is not, then God would be unjust. This doctrine is an insult to the Holy Spirit, whose job is to convict people of their need for Jesus Christ and his Gospel. It is true that man is a total sinner, but that does not mean that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.

What happened to Adam and Eve in the fall?

What did they lose? Did they lose their ability to reason? Of course not. What they lost was their relationship with God. They did not lose their free will. If one has the ability to sin, one has the ability to exercise his free will. Cain by his own free will slew his brother Abel, which proves that man still had the ability to exercise his free will. Unless you want to believe that God made Cain kill his brother Abel, which not only makes God unjust, but makes him a participant in the murder of Abel.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter stood up and preached the Gospel for the very first time. What was the results? 8,000 Jews heard and believed the Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. The Gospel gave birth to the New Testament church. Some of those that heard Peter's Gospel had participated in the crucifixion of Christ.

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Therefore let all of the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ" Acts 2:23 also Acts 2:36.

Now are we to believe that those who crucified Christ were God's people, predestinated to be saved from the foundation of the world? The elect. In other words, God chose those who crucified Christ to be his people?

Calvinist also want us to believe that the apostle Paul traveled over 10,000 miles by boat, donkey and on foot, preaching the Gospel to the pagan Gentiles for nothing. Why should he endure all of that pain and suffering if God has already determined who is going to be saved and who is to be lost? If Paul and the other apostles believed that they never would have risked their lives for the sake of the Gospel.

All of the apostles except for John died violent deaths because of their faith in Christ and his Gospel. Calvinist would has us believe that all of that was a waste, because God has already predetermined who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost. If it is true that God has already predetermined who will be saved and who is going to be lost, then who needs the Gospel? Who needs anything, including Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

Good point Robert, why would God have disciples of Christ go to the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the gospel if it's already decided?

 

[dodge]

You can preach the Gospel all day and night to a lost person, its hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

Rom 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[beloved57]

You are apparently one of the lost. You have no understanding of what Christ has accomplished on the behalf of fallen man.

As long as man is lost he can't believe the Gospel because it is hidden to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

 

[beloved57]

Rom 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

No problem with them scriptures. Doesn't change the fact that a lost person can't believe the Gospel because it is hidden from them.