Letsargue
New member
Good!!! -- You're nothing but a nuisance with your foolish atheism anyhow!!!!!! -- You can't have an argument against anything of Christ, SO BYE!!!!!!!!!!
Paul -- 121212
toldailytopic: Who was Jesus?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Good!!! -- You're nothing but a nuisance with your foolish atheism anyhow!!!!!! -- You can't have an argument against anything of Christ, SO BYE!!!!!!!!!!
Paul -- 121212
And convicts the world of sin.
Quit thinking you know me. My dad was a preacher.
I think you told us before, but what denomination? Liberal/nominal or evangelical?
See:
Godrulz
A few housekeeping items:
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Silent Hunter
Well-known member
Conservative evangelical. The exact denomination is irrelevant for, to me, they are all the same.
If you think they are all the same, you have made a misinformed mistake.:down:
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
If you think they're not you're doing too much differentiating.
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Letsargue
New member
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for December 6th, 2012 11:39 AM
toldailytopic: Who was Jesus?
Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.
The only begotten son of God the Father who created everything in existence and who is and was and will always be God who came to earth in the form of a man to face life without sin, being tempted in all points yet did not turn away from the Father and sin, who gave His life as a ransom for many, and all those who trust in Him (who He is and what He did on the cross for us and rose again to life like we can) will not perish but have everlasting life and He died and rose
He is the way the truth and the life, the great physician and by His stripes we are healed, He is the messiah, and the high priest after the order of Melchizedek and ever lives to make intercession for us.
He will one day come back to judge the world, and one day all, will confess He is Lord.
Christ's Word
New member
Revelation 3:14 14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
Or the more accurate translation.....
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
So Christ says he is the beginning of the creation of God, and you the liar say.......____________________________________ what?
Firstborn (prototokos) means preeminent over creation, not a created being (Col. 1 context is about His Deity).
Heb. 1 shows He is superior to angels because He is YHWH, not created.
Jn. 1 clearly shows He is eternal God, not mere man.
Rev. 3:14 is an Arian/JW proof text. Jehovah is also called Beginning and End. A word study shows that He is the origin, source, architect (beginning=arche), ruler (used elsewhere of ruler men) of creation. He is not the first created being. The same book identifies Him as Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last, titles of Deity showing His eternality (phases used of YHWH/Father).
http://www.forananswer.org/Rev/Rv3_14.htm
http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/revelation/revelation-3-14.html
40 verses support the Deity of Christ. This is one of 6 verses used by JWs, etc. to try to reduce Christ to creature or inferior to the Father. An alternate, credible understanding exists for this verse (vs created being), so we interpret it in light of all the evidence and other verses that show Jesus is uncreated Creator, not created being.
Lex Rex, not Rex Lex! :cheers:
Sin is lawlessness, rebellion, volitional, missing the mark, disobedience, etc. This is why there is moral culpability/responsibility.
Sin is not metaphysical, genetic, substance, being, nature, etc.
I have many Bible verses to support my view. You have Thomas Aquinas, Anselm, Augustine, etc.
Talk about a broken record. You have an odd sect/cult that makes its sole reason for existence to refute my view of impeccability (that is also shared by other equally capable, godly believers vs the traditional view that is not true).
Bottom line: Jesus/God is SINLESS/HOLY=we agree on what counts.
Sin is not a thing that can be imputed. Sin is personal, not genetic. Rom. 5:12 shows the occasion of sin entering the human race through Adam. It cannot be proof texted to say that it is the cause of me sinning (I would be no more responsible than having brown hair and gays would be born that way?). The consequences of sin are inherited because of Adam's sin. This is PHYSICAL depravity. There are also various views on imputation. Rom. 5:12 shows that we fall in Adam's footsteps as we each choose to sin...BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED. So, the verse must be interpreted in light of the extended passages on sin like Rom. 1-3 (that do not support original sin views, but my view of sin as choice vs substance). Moral depravity is not genetic, but personal, volitional. Ezekiel the soul that sins is the one that dies. We are universally condemned because we all sin (Rom. 1-3), not because our parents had sex and conceived us, no fault of our own.
You are supporting Catholic tradition and I am trying to support a more biblical, true view. Like others who are wrong and don't see it, you can plug your ears, quote other wrong authors, etc., but it does not make your view more credible.
Point VI: http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs02.htm
Unless you can refute this, you should quit the personal attacks, misrepresentations, etc.
If you cannot see that sin is volitional, not genetic, I cannot help you in your unbelief.
I have given you an interpretative, theological principle of moral vs physical depravity that will help you have a more biblical, balanced view (we do have a propensity to sin, we all sin, etc., but it is not a being issue, but a mind/will issue, hence we are responsible and cannot blame something/someone else).
There's really no need for Jesus at all in your theology. :dizzy: An imperfect god would have no business telling us to be perfect. Your god is not: holy, perfect and righteous so he can do nothing for us.
SD: “ Could he [Jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…” link
See:
What is the definition of sin? What is the difference between imputed sin, inherited sin, and personal sin?
What is sin? What is the biblical definition of sin?
Why does Christ's righteousness need to be imputed to us? What is imputation? Why, on the basis of Christ's death, can God declare us to be righteous?
Acknowledging Sin and Law: The True Gospel...
:yawn: Red Herring Eph 4:14
I reject Catholicism (Jud 11). Do you reject the doctrine of depravity? Explain why man is the way he is. :smokie:
See:
Godrulz
God IS HOLY, PERFECT, RIGHTEOUS. I do not differ from you and standard Christianity on this. You did not attempt to interact with Rex Lex vs Lex Rex, though.
Jesus is God. He is HOLY, PERFECT, RIGHTEOUS. God's CHARACTER (you wrongly think it is His being...spirit can be good or evil, God or Satan, angel or demon) is the basis for morals/law. An atheist does not get this, but we do.
Man is a condemned sinner, a rebel by choice (not birth). We thus need a sinless Saviour because we cannot save ourselves (Rom. 1:16; Rom. 3:23; Rom. 6:23; Rom. 10:9-10, etc.).
I reject Calvinistic depravity in favor of biblical depravity. Total depravity is not total inability. TULIP is not biblical. I rightly distinguish physical and moral depravity, but you blur the distinction.
There are various schools of though on imputation. Your version is not needed to get to heaven (most believers don't have a clue of the different understandings held by great men of God and churches through the centuries).
If you claim imputed righteous and live like the devil, something is wrong.
A causative, Adamic nature back of the will is not needed to explain sin. Lucifer and Adam sinned without a sinful nature. Free moral agency means one can choose good or evil. This involves the seat of moral choice, will and mind. You wrongly think it is something to do with birth, a Darwinian idea more than a biblical one.
SD: “ Could he [Jesus] have sinned?
Godrulz: “I believe He could have, but did not…” link
You'll need Ro 5:12 to go away.
:yawn: Red Herring
I reject John Calvin.
:yawn: Red Herring Eph 4:14
I reject Charles Darwin.
Would you have done better in the garden than Adam? He had no sin nature (Ge 3:7).
[Total depravity - is it biblical?]
"Question: "Total depravity - is it biblical?"
Answer: Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9), and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).
The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.
Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and 6—above all, they have no fear of God. So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”
Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).
However, even when the doctrine of total depravity is properly understood, many people will reject the doctrine, but that fact should not surprise us, since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore, the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart, and the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but his wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and will recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self-righteousness and any misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).
As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these “doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners." Total depravity - is it biblical?
See:
Godrulz
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You can reject Calvin and Darwin, as do I, but if your view is Calvinistic, so be it.
I gave you an exposition of Rom. 5:12. Using your logic, if you disagree with your pastor (if you even have one) on the interpretation of a verse (as commentators/translators through the centuries have on any given verse), then the one who disagrees with you is cutting the verse out of the Bible (even if they are right?). If you disagree on an interpretation/application, I am not stupid enough to say you are making the verse go away?! Interact with the view instead of waving a hand in blind dismissal.
Newsflash: You are not infallible.
Newsflash: Kids should not play on adult theology discussion forums.:luigi:
I gave you an exposition of Rom. 5:12. Using your logic, if you disagree with your pastor (if you even have one) on the interpretation of a verse (as commentators/translators through the centuries have on any given verse), then the one who disagrees with you is cutting the verse out of the Bible (even if they are right?). If you disagree on an interpretation/application, I am not stupid enough to say you are making the verse go away?! Interact with the view instead of waving a hand in blind dismissal.
Newsflash: You are not infallible.
Newsflash: Kids should not play on adult theology discussion forums.:luigi:
:yawn: Red Herring
I reject John Calvin.
"...(1) We are sinners because we commit acts of sin. Also, (2) we’re sinners by nature (sin doesn’t make us sinners, but we sin because we have that nature). (3) We are in the state of sin. God has declared the entire human family under sin. (4) Finally, you and I are also sinners by imputation. That is, Adam acted for the human race because he was the head of it..." Full text: Ro 5:12 J. Vernon McGee
Adam's sin was imputed to us.
:yawn: "Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..." Full text: How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson
See:
Hermeneutics
:yawn: Red Herring
:yawn: Ad hominem
See:
Godrulz