Nang
TOL Subscriber
No such thing . . .
toldailytopic: What is Open Theism? What do you think of it?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
No such thing . . .
What he means is that if something makes sense, then it must be false because if we are able to make sense of God or the Bible, this would contradict the Calvinistic notion that man is totally depraved and can't understand anything on his own.
In other words, the less sense Calvinist theology makes, the more they believe it.
In the most basic sense I completely agree with you that God is sovereign and man is responsible. I'm sure you are aware that open theism is not a complete rejection of classic theism or Calvinism nor a full acceptance of Arminianism.
I would not call it a synthesis of both but one could argue it is, and for the sake of making a valid point I would accept the synthesis as a valid proposition. Open theism is against the control of "all things" that your understanding of God's sovereignty implies and the knowing "all future things" that is implied in Arminianism.
God clearly, in open view, controls "some", but not all things and knows "some", but not all future things. The things he controls he would have certain and actual future knowledge of. If there are things he is not controlling then he would not have certain or actual future knowledge of.
The problem is the "all-ness" that is embedded in classic view (CV), your view and Arminian. In CV God cannot be "perfect or infinite" unless every attribute of God is unlimited, both fully and timelessly actualized.
I don't think we need argue if this "all-ness", as I call it, is Natural Theology and not Biblical Revelation, I think we agree that it is Natural theology. That the one is antithical to the other we may, or may not, argue over but the difference between us would be if this "all-ness", the reason for God's full and absolute sovereignty, is Biblical or not.
The Bible does not portray God as Natural theology does as "pure actuality", or as the "Unmoved Mover", or as "fully timelessly actualized" in "all" of his attributes. If God were immovable, changeless, and timeless in "all" of his attrbutes and in his relationship to the world, to us, then he could not be good, he could not be love.
So I would ask you how God can be good or love if he "controls everything" as you have said contrasts OV. You are correct to say that God in OV does not control everything but wrong to conclude that in OV he controls nothing. How in CV can a God who controls all things be good? That God would be responsible for all that is evil as well as all that is good if he controlls "all" things. How in CV can God be love if he controls us?
When you say because of the absolute depravity of man or because we are finite, we cannot comprehend this "all-ness" of God and therefore what only seems like a contradict in our minds is still absolutely and necessarily true you end up with an irrational faith. I say an irrational faith because what ever is a contradiction to the the rational human mind is, humanly speaking, irrational.
--Dave
Letsargue
New member
I couldn’t help but respond to such failure to understand the creation and speak of it as you understand it all!!! – Your first sentence tells on you.
This whole thing again is so simple it impossible for the smarter than God to see it. - Even God knows that no one is going to go through that much garbage, ( 50 pages ) to see something so simple as the Creation!!
God “SPOKE” the Creation into existence?? – That is God’s simple way of showing how He did it for even the simple minded.
This is how God does most everything. --- God simply says: ( “LET - ( Let Who ), there be”, and ( He ) takes on the “Form” that He has in His ( “Mind / Thought / Word / Right Hand / Son / Savior / Truth / “LIGHT”. – Because the Creation IS who God IS. - Now the Creation Declares the Glory of God, and the “Firmament” / “Earth” showeth His “( HANDY )” Work!!!
The Creation is Just that simple, and it doesn’t take 50 pages of stuff not spoken by the Creator / the Creation!!! --- Sorry if I interrupted you all fight.
Paul – 041313
Doormat
New member
Doormat said:
If God could observe in detail what we call the future, would that completely undermine open theism?
I'm not a Calvinist so I can't answer that.
Can you show me the prophesies you're thinking of?
Letsargue
New member
Are you expecting an ( Answer ) from here??
He has ( NEVER ) answered Me on anything. There is a burning bush to dance around.
Paul -- 041313
Most non-Calvinistic Arminians who reject OSAS because of free will views are not Open Theists. Are you sure you can handle an amateur theology site?
Since God is not all knowing [as they suppose] it is quite possible that He is not the only God as He says, maybe there is a greater one who yet hides Himself, perhaps He will null and void all the promises of scripture..
Seriously? Why reject a view you do not understand or cannot explain?
God is all-knowing not ignorant of anything knowable (some things are inherently unknowable). He knows the past and present exhaustively. He is clear in Isaiah that there are no other gods before or after Him. He knows none. You are implying he is ignorant of past or present reality. This is NOT what Open Theism teaches. He is also intelligent and sovereign and knows that no other gods would form since He alone is Creator and eternal. If there was another eternal God, He would have always known this. Your objection is lame.
God is also faithful to His Word. This is character, not crystal ball. You underestimate His great intelligence and knowledge and power. Foreknowledge also offers no providential advantage because God could not change the fixed future even if He wanted to (would make His FK false).
You are giving a knee-jerk reaction, not one that involves basic critical thinking and understanding of opposing views. You are also blind to the problems with your own view.
Yours is not an Open Theism objection (there are better ones) because it makes no sense and is a total straw man argument. Get familiar with the literature (for and against Open Theism) before you take pot shots (if you want credibility to speak).
If there is a greater than God who yet keeps Himself hidden from Jahweh...this would be unknowable by God...even Jahweh hides Himself, to me it is one of His more remarkable miracles.
My dear William you yourself seem engaged here with "unknowables" I am merely tickling your ears further.
My dear William you yourself seem engaged here with "unknowables" I am merely tickling your ears further.
:doh:
It is not the position of the open view that God is ignorant of such things.
It is, however, my firm position that you are completely ignorant of a great many things.
I choose to be so
I choose to be ignorant of some posters too... I choose what to fill my mind with, and I choose not to fill it with open view theology.
Some people could be persuaded that God is a apple pie.
I choose to be ignorant of some posters too... I choose what to fill my mind with, and I choose not to fill it with open view theology.
Some people could be persuaded that God is a apple pie.
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Letsargue
New member
Obviously