toldailytopic: US House of Representatives pass Obama-care.

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WandererInFog

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What do you think grant money is used for? Most of it is used for equipment and supplies. Many Biotech companies charge ridiculous sums for their kits, enzymes and supplies. And those are the bread and butter of biotech research.

Ours were mostly federal and occasionally corporate . . .it depends on the area of research you're talking about though. But in modern biotech basic research, you're talking federal dollars - which get channeled to those that supply equipment.

So, I gotta ask, do you see the connection between federal dollars becoming involved and corporations being able to charge those ridiculous sums being charged? And do you see how that now with our healthcare, that once federal dollars start flowing out in increasing amounts to for-profit corporations, it could cause prices to spike there as well?

This is precisely what concerns me the absolute most about what's now been enacted into law. Even putting aside for a moment all of concerns regarding the expansion of federal authority, all of the projections of this being deficit neutral are based on costs remaining basically stable, but in the past once federal money starts getting thrown around in a particular sector, it drives costs up and I see nothing in this legislation to prevent that from happening.
 

Ecumenicist

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Hey Townie, you do know the profit margin for almost all insurance companies is like 2.5%? I mean seriously, your whining about insurance profits at 2.5%.

Another right wing lie. A "Boehner faced lie," if you will.

Anyone can run a not for profit and take home 10 million a week. Profit has nothing to do with how the money is spent.

I think this bill forces insurance companies to apply a percentage of revenues to actual claims, I think I heard 85% but I could be wrong.

I agree with Ktoyou, they're a bunch of pigs, but at least this attempts to keep them in a pen.
 

Jackson

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All I know is that I currently pay about 360 dollars a month for my 80/20coverage and now according to the projected costs I will pay 340 per pay period.

360 X 12= 4320 currently
340 X 26 = 8840 projected

Yep, that bill really helped me alot!
 

The Barbarian

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Do you want to know the main reason that these people die from curable diseases? It isn't lack of free health services. It isn't the Republicans standing in the way. It isn't lack of free housing, or free food. It's lack of care - self-care. If they cannot be made to care for themselves, then no services, private or government-forced, will prevent their self destruction. If their family members and friends cannot be made to care enough to lift them up and see them through the tough times, then their is little help of their coming up off the street to take care of themselves.

Uh, yeah, if bad things happen to poor people it's their fault. Social Darwinism at it's most blatant.
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
All I know is that I currently pay about 360 dollars a month for my 80/20coverage and now according to the projected costs I will pay 340 per pay period.

360 X 12= 4320 currently
340 X 26 = 8840 projected

Yep, that bill really helped me alot!

May I ask who you are with? I have Cigna and wondering if I can expect that kind of increase myself.
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
In what ways?

It is going to be to much of a hassle to run their business. Which is exactly what they do, run a business. Taxes they will have to pay (they are not excluded from this bill you know), tort laws killing them, just to name a couple reasons.
 

The Barbarian

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A lot of it goes into effect pretty much immediately, so we'll know shortly if the country is destroyed, or if all that talk was just more craziness from the radicals.

I'm betting a chocolate chip cookie, it's craziness. And then, there's signs that the public is waking up to what all the shrieking and wailing really meant:

gallup_poll_pre_and_post_passage_.png

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/poll_health-care_reform_more_p.html
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
A lot of it goes into effect pretty much immediately, so we'll know shortly if the country is destroyed, or if all that talk was just more craziness from the radicals.

I'm betting a chocolate chip cookie, it's craziness. And then, there's signs that the public is waking up to what it was all about:

gallup_poll_pre_and_post_passage_.png

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/poll_health-care_reform_more_p.html

LOL!!! Yeah make sure all the "goodies" happen in time for the midterm, and let the bad stuff take effect after Obama is gone. That's some smart politiking.
 

The Barbarian

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Politics as usual, um?

There really isn't any difference between the two parties. The Obama wing just played this one a little better than the Limbaugh wing.

I have no idea whether or not the bill will do anything good. Have you read it all?

We'll have to see what happens.
 

The Barbarian

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It is going to be to much of a hassle to run their business. Which is exactly what they do, run a business. Taxes they will have to pay (they are not excluded from this bill you know), tort laws killing them, just to name a couple reasons.

You do know, don't you, that "tort reform" has usually been aimed at making it harder for small businesses to sue big businesses?

That's where the real money is for those pushing tort reform.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
So, I gotta ask, do you see the connection between federal dollars becoming involved and corporations being able to charge those ridiculous sums being charged?
I don't think its the facts of federal dollars. The lab was under a grant from Ford motor company during most of my PhD and our spending practices were no different than when under a federal grant. It more depended how much money you were given. Some federal grants are big, others are small. The price is more to do with the realization that there's little shopping around when it comes to research materials. You buy what works and stick with that so long as you have the cash. If you're trying to get by on a shoestring, you become more inventive. But biotech companies make their money on labs that have lots of money to throw around and it could be corporate or government. And generally the very expensive products do tend to get results faster . . .

And do you see how that now with our healthcare, that once federal dollars start flowing out in increasing amounts to for-profit corporations, it could cause prices to spike there as well?
No, for a couple reasons. The easy way to make money in the insurance industry has been to deny people care, drop coverage etc when they become too expensive. The health care reform bill makes most of these sorts of approaches illegal. So now if insurance companies want to make money, they'll need to put more pressure on pharmaceutical companies and hospitals to keep costs down.

Currently if you're uninsured you get charged the highest possible rate at the hospital, whereas insurance companies negotiate for lower rates. If everyone is insured, hospitals won't feel the constant pinch of people defaulting on their bills which will enable them to charge lower prices (since their finances will then be more predictable) for which the insurance companies will have more incentive to negotiate. In short you get a positive feedback loop in terms of healthcare costs.

The insurance companies could also jack up rates, but I believe they are partly constrained by the current legislation and if those rules aren't sufficient, I am confident new regulations will be enacted.

I think the main issue with the legislation at current is the exchanges and regulation of insurance companies are state based. I think both would be better off managed by the federal government.
 

The Barbarian

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Ok, let's assume the chart is accurate, In the USA twice the percentage of money is spent on about half as many people.

Can you, then, say to us, or the topic addressed, as to why this is the case?

Wage controls in WWII. I'm not joking. Price and wage controls were in place at the time. So businesses couldn't compete for scarce labor by offering more money. What they did was offer all sorts of fringe benefits, like health care.

After the war, that continued, and it was a bonanza for doctors, whose incomes shot up. Then the insurance companies started to wise up and became first more careful, and then outright abusive about approving care.

That's how it happened.
 

nicholsmom

New member
What's wrong with handing executives tens of millions of dollars for doing so well, and then telling the public that they did so poorly that they need to raise rates by 39%?
You said that they named rising health care costs as the cause of the premium rise, not that they did poorly. If they claim that they lost money due to mismanagement or something, I'd agree. But they didn't. They said that the costs had risen. They had and continue to do so. Surely you don't deny this?

When it's stolen from the policyholders and shareholders, it's wrong.
How can I disagree? Are they stealing from policyholders? No, policyholders can shop around (good luck - I hate insurance) or pay their own bills, at which time they will find that the insurance company didn't lie, cheat or steal - the prices have risen :noway: Who'd have thought it?

If they can improve the product and offer it at a better price, or make a higher profit, that's one thing.
I agree that sinking so much into bonuses looks like stealing from shareholders, but what do we know? It is quite likely that the best talent in the industry is kept by boondoggles and bonuses. The shareholders may very well be beholden to those brilliant executives. Some people have a talent with money, some don't (me for example :noid:).

But when they squander millions on bonuses and parties, and then tell everyone how poor they are, that's another.
There you go again with the "poor" misquote. Did they tell everyone that they are poor, or did they say that costs had risen and that cost must needs be passed on? Every business must do that, it has nothing whatever to do with mismanagement - it would be mismanagement if the company did not pass on those rising costs.
 

nicholsmom

New member
Uh, yeah, if bad things happen to poor people it's their fault. Social Darwinism at it's most blatant.

I didn't say that. Go back and re-read it if you have to, but that isn't what I said. My point was that a distant bureaucracy cannot motivate people to stand on their own feet, only people can do that - close people like family, neighbors, and churches. No amount of federal dollars thrown into services for a man who is down in the gutter will help that man. He lacks the motivation to access those services. Should an impersonal government force a man to accept help?

It's possible that this thought process was spread across several posts, but I think that one post does the trick.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
I didn't say that. Go back and re-read it if you have to, but that isn't what I said. My point was that a distant bureaucracy cannot motivate people to stand on their own feet, only people can do that - close people like family, neighbors, and churches.
What if someone does not have any of these things? (and yes there are PLENTY of people in that situation) Just because you have helpful friends, family and neighbors doesn't mean everyone else does, especially the poor.

No amount of federal dollars thrown into services for a man who is down in the gutter will help that man. He lacks the motivation to access those services. Should an impersonal government force a man to accept help?
If he's down in the gutter because his legs are broken and has no money to go to a doctor, how exactly could he just be "motivated enough" to seek out services?

Poor people are not poor by and large just because they're just not "motivated enough". You're just repeating your statements from before. Government programs aren't necessarily the best help for people but often they're the only help. In your view we should simply yell at the guy in the gutter with broken legs to stand up and walk, because if he were really motivated he could do it . . . . :rolleyes:
 

The Barbarian

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Now that the bill takes tax payer money and gives it to baby murderers, I predict (I'm no expert let me say)

No kidding you aren't. The bill doesn't do that at all. It is subject to the Hyde Amendment, which prohibits public funds for abortion.
 

serpentdove

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Obama-care
The government has no right to steal from hard-working citizens (Ex 20:15). I like Bob Enyart's baseball bat analogy (I paraphrase):

If someone attempts to murder you, you can rightfully hit them over the head with a baseball bat to protect yourself (Gen. 9:5, 6; Num. 35:16–21, 30–33; Deut. 17:6).

If someone holds you captive in their basement, should you have the opportunity to hit them over the head with a baseball bat, you should (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7).

If you have broken your leg and cannot afford healthcare to reset the bone are you permitted to go to your neighbor’s house and demand money threatening him with a baseball bat? No (Ex 20:15).

Government has certain responsibilities: Paternal functions of (Gen. 41:25–57). Civil service school provided by (Dan. 1:3–20). Maintains a system of public instruction (2 Chr. 17:7–9).

They are not permitted to steal.

God gave the tithe which was ten percent and even that was voluntary (1Sa 8:15,17). Men rejected God's merciful rule and reign in favor of kings (1 Sam. 8:5, 6).

Joseph, a type of Christ in scripture, was a good administrator. Of course we see no Joseph-type in Washington today:

Genesis 41:33–36

"Joseph continued speaking, after he had explained the events which God had revealed were coming on the land, to instruct Pharaoh in how he should prepare to meet the coming crisis. Instead of living every year on that year’s abundance, as the Egyptians had grown accustomed to doing, they would need to implement a sound program of savings—not of money but of grain.

Unfortunately, the people themselves could not be relied on to store up for the coming years of famine. Human nature being what it is, most people will spend all they earn, and more, for their immediate needs, both real and imagined. The few individuals who would indeed save for the future would be tempted to profiteer when opportunity came. Besides, the need was going to be so great that nothing less than a centrally administered plan could really be effective on a national basis.

On the other hand, a central bureaucracy could easily lead to despotism and cruelty, especially if all available food supplies were in the hands of a self-seeking dictator. The key to the success of such a plan, and the survival of the nation, would be the chief administrator. The right man would be a deliverer; the wrong man could become a tyrant.

Therefore, Joseph’s first recommendation was for Pharaoh to find the right man, a man who was possessed of both keen intellect and true wisdom, a man who could with confidence be placed over the whole land of Egypt to plan its future food production and distribution systems.

Then, this chief administrator should be provided with a corps of capable and trustworthy deputies to administer his plan. It would be necessary to levy a “double tithe” on the produce of Egypt during the years of plenty. It has been shown by historians that tithing was practiced in ancient Egypt and other nations, as a form of taxes or tribute to the king; but a 20 percent levy would be very unusual, and might well be resisted, especially if enacted by an unpopular sovereign. Thus, the chief administrator of this plan would have to be skilled in diplomacy and persuasion, as well as be of unquestioned integrity himself, in order to overcome the natural reluctance of the people to such a tax. Of course, resistance would be minimized in times of prosperity; so the plan could work if it was properly carried out.

The food which was gathered in this manner should, Joseph advised, then be preserved in large storehouses constructed for this purpose. The 80 percent that the people would have left would be more than adequate to meet all their needs, as well as the need for exports, during the seven plenteous years, and the rest would probably have been wasted anyhow. The food should be kept stored and guarded in depositories in key cities throughout the land, in order to have food available in the years of famine which would eventually come.
There is also a possibility that the grain was acquired by purchase, rather than by taxation. Scripture is not explicit on this point. In this case, the money must itself have come through taxes, so the effect would be the same. Because of the abundance, the price would have been low. However it was done, no one would have to suffer hardship, if it were handled judiciously and fairly. The key to it all would be to select the right administrator."
Morris, H. M. (1976). The Genesis record : A scientific and devotional commentary on the book of beginnings. Includes indexes. (583). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

The social Democrats are destroying a man's freedom (given by God) to keep the fruits of his labors.
 

serpentdove

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Gee except you already were being forced to pay for other people. Now it will be cheaper, for ALL of us.

And snake? Healthcare reform was what Obama campaigned on, the people voted for him, he fulfilled his promise. This is underhanded exactly how?
People have the right to be left alone. Leftists spread misery not wealth and good care. The reason social Democrats get votes is because they promise hand outs. Government has no money that it did not first take from another person. A man has the right to keep the fruits of his labor. What they call "social justice" we call theft (Ex 20:15). :Commie:
 
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