toldailytopic: Theistic evolution: best arguments for, or against.

[Stripe]

No, there is no more evidence for theistic evolution than there is for intelligent design - i.e. - none, because there is proof that both are false.There is evidence for evolution by natural selection - reams of it. Belief is a matter of faith - and if you don't have it, you don't have it.

Uh.. OK. I guess we're just going to have to take your word for it then?

 

[kalliste]

Take my word for it?

That I don't have faith - I am afraid so.

If Charles Darwin, Stephen J Gould and David Attenborough have not persuaded you of all the evidence there is for evolution by natural selection, what hope have I got with the limitations of a chat forum?

Get real - just because you choose to ignore it, that doesn't mean you are right.

 

[noguru]

Are you trying to say the thread has been hijacked?


Here is a brief recap:
Some people believe in theistic evolution based on changing the six days of creation into millions of years. Other people say that a belief in the Bible is foolish because it was written by shepherds in the Middle East instead of good scotch drinking druids.

Got it?

And again your recap of this shows just how daft your original foray into that subject matter was to begin with. Since your real point has nothing at all do to with the cultural diversity involved here. Let me remind you that both cultures are both shepherds and warring people. And many of these people from both of these cultures think your particular take on interpreting Genesis is ill advised based on all the info we have available to us in modern times.

 

[The Barbarian]

Evolution requires no religious belief, any more than chemistry or plumbing requires religious belief. Like chemistry and plumbing, it is consistent with religious belief.

 

[noguru]

Take my word for it?

That I don't have faith - I am afraid so.

If Charles Darwin, Stephen J Gould and David Attenborough have not persuaded you of all the evidence there is for evolution by natural selection, what hope have I got with the limitations of a chat forum?

Get real - just because you choose to ignore it, that doesn't mean you are right.

That is an accurate assessment. However the irony is that some think this forum should be a free trading place of ideas. While others think it should be monopolized by a certain anti-modernist mindset.

There is no accounting for taste. :chuckle:

 

[noguru]

Evolution requires no religious belief, any more than chemistry or plumbing requires religious belief. Like chemistry and plumbing, it is consistent with religious belief.

It is amazing that such a simple concept can escape the minds of so many self-proclaimed "wise" people. :rotfl:

 

[One Eyed Jack]

They were at war constantly and often committed mass murder-- according to the Bible. And are doing the same since regaining their homeland.

You don't find it strange that a culture that old not only retained their cultural identity for centuries, but also regained their homeland? Everything about Israel defies all the odds -- in the Bible and today. Do you ever think about what that might mean? I know I do.

 

[kalliste]

You don't find it strange that a culture that old not only retained their cultural identity for centuries, but also regained their homeland? Everything about Israel defies all the odds -- in the Bible and today. Do you ever think about what that might mean? I know I do.

What cultural identity?
Do you imagine that the current crop bear any relationship to the original?

 

[The Barbarian]

What cultural identity?
Do you imagine that the current crop bear any relationship to the original?

Genetically, no. The Jews whose families had always been there are genetically indistinguishable from the Palestinians, and those from other parts of the world are mostly like the others in those lands.

But culturally, they represent a continuous tradition from the time of Moses at least.

 

[kalliste]

Are you sure?

It seems to me there has been a massive change between then and now, and what you have in Israel now bears more resemblance to a bunch of European wannabees than any actual "cultural" similarity.

Look at what happened to the Falasha Jews - and their cultural identity - which definitely was an "unbroken" line, or at least it was until the Israelis got hold of it.

 

[noguru]

You don't find it strange that a culture that old not only retained their cultural identity for centuries, but also regained their homeland? Everything about Israel defies all the odds -- in the Bible and today. Do you ever think about what that might mean? I know I do.

:think:

Yes, absolutely. I lived in Miami for 12 years. Most of the big players in industry down there are Jewish. I loved to go down to mid beach on Friday to Saturday evening to see all the Orthodox and Hasidic Jews observing the sabbath.

Have you ever actually discussed the theological ideas and the history involved in Judaism with a Jewish person? How many? Do you not see how their religion/culture actually gives then a springboard to defy the odds around them.

They have identified Ashkenazi jews as being the best chess players on average in the world. And that is not really that suprising given their history of having to learn complex strategies just to stay alive.

 

[noguru]

Are you sure?

It seems to me there has been a massive change between then and now, and what you have in Israel now bears more resemblance to a bunch of European wannabees than any actual "cultural" similarity.

Look at what happened to the Falasha Jews - and their cultural identity - which definitely was an "unbroken" line, or at least it was until the Israelis got hold of it.

Yes, in all things history illustrates obvious changes from one period to another. That is why we always see this process of reform, which then becomes orthodoxy, which then leads to reform again. It becomes difficult to know whether what is labeled "orthodoxy" is actually the exact doctrine/practice as it was thought to be at the very beginning of that tradition. However, Jewish rabbis have had one of the best methodologies in practice in the effort to minimize the effect of human error. They also see that it is valuable to place some if not equal importance on the oral tradition as well.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

:think:

Yes, absolutely. I lived in Miami for 12 years. Most of the big players in industry down there are Jewish. I loved to go down to mid beach on Friday to Saturday evening to see all the Orthodox and Hasidic Jews observing the sabbath.

Have you ever actually discussed the theological ideas and the history involved in Judaism with a Jewish person? How many? Do you not see how their religion/culture actually gives then a springboard to defy the odds around them.

I can definitely see that. It's still pretty amazing.

They have identified Ashkenazi jews as being the best chess players on average in the world. And that is not really that suprising given their history of having to learn complex strategies just to stay alive.

True enough. Speaking of Jewish chess masters, have you ever heard of Jonathan Sarfati?

 

[noguru]

I can definitely see that. It's still pretty amazing.



True enough. Speaking of Jewish chess masters, have you ever heard of Jonathan Sarfati?

:rotfl:

Of course I have heard of him. I am no babe in the woods when it comes to the names of some well known YECs.

Sarfati is a FIDE Master in chess, and achieved a draw against former world champion Boris Spassky during a tournament in Wellington in 1988,[11] and was New Zealand's national chess champion in 1987–88[12] representing that country in Chess Olympiads in 1986, 1988, and 1992.

I actually found out in Miami from one of my Jewban friends that I have Sephardic Jewish ancestry myself. My Sicilian ancestors kept track of a great great grandfather who moved from Spain to Sicily. A good friend of mine R. Hernandez explained that a certain spelling of Spanish last names was meant to denote a conversion during the Spanish Inquisition.

Sephardic Jew

Is there a reason you brought this whole Jewish roots thing up in this dialogue?

 

[One Eyed Jack]

:rotfl:

Of course I have heard of him. I am no babe in the woods when it comes to the names of some well known YECs.



Is there a reason you brought him up in this dialogue?

Well, I didn't want to be responsible for derailing the thread, and you gave me the perfect opening to steer us back on topic. Well done.

 

[noguru]

Well, I didn't want to be responsible for derailing the thread, and you gave me the perfect opening to steer us back on topic. Well done.

Yay!!!

I think that this thread was pretty much destined to be derailed right from the start. I think it was created by someone who really does not want to know the evidence, and mainly for an audience he suspects feels exactly the same way. With all due respect.

 

[eameece]

He's not quoting scripture to prove scripture. You asked for evidence of the Exodus and scripture is the best source of that.

If the only claim for the Exodus is the account in the book of Exodus, that is not evidence that the claim is true. You are only saying you accept the claim on faith. That's your choice, but you can't claim there is any evidence to back up the claim. genuine original supplied a source for evidence; I probably will look at it.

 

[Tolken]

No, there is no more evidence for theistic evolution than there is for intelligent design - i.e. - none, because there is proof that both are false. There is evidence for evolution by natural selection - reams of it. Belief is a matter of faith - and if you don't have it, you don't have it.

That there is a process is one thing how that process began is still in question.

 

[eameece]

Evolution by natural selection does not require any interference by any supernatural event or being.

Theistic evolution is as specious as intelligent design; it includes an admission that evolution as a process does happen, but pretends that it requires a supernatural cause.

Natural selection does not explain anything but external influences that affect the survival of species. It does not explain the driving force of life. That does not have to be posited as an external cause. Life is causing itself; life is sacred, it is God acting through evolution, and through us humans as its current leading edge. This divine energy is not supernatural, in the sense of being beyond nature. It IS supernatural in the sense that it can't be explained by old-fashioned mechanical laws from the old materialist physics.

This new age approach cuts through the dichotomy between the spiritual and the secular; a wonderful attitude for those who are open to see it. It is truth and divine, and the true essence of scripture too, and what Jesus taught. But you need the ears to hear it.

 

[eameece]

Evolution requires no religious belief, any more than chemistry or plumbing requires religious belief. Like chemistry and plumbing, it is consistent with religious belief.

That's right; it's just a question of what aspect of reality you are focusing on. When you are doing plumbing work, you don't need to discuss religion. Although, on the other hand, faith in the divine does you good too while you are doing your plumbing work. But you also need to know and have the skills of a plumber to do the work. Reading the Bible might not be enough.

So with evolution; you can look at the external details that can be examined in microscopes and fossils; or you can see the subtle forces at work driving us toward unfolding the divine idea. Whatever you focus on is what you see. All are aspects of the one reality of our sacred world of Nature and Life.