toldailytopic: The Catholics: what did they get right, and what did they get wrong?

[annabenedetti]

OK. I think I remember anna mentioning a believers baptism earlier and thought she meant it was a Catholic thing.

No, I was asking if you thought Catholic baptism was a believer's baptism like the Baptists do, because I wanted to explain how Catholic baptism is not a believer's baptism. :e4e:

What does the sacrament of Confirmation entail?

It is a sealing of the Holy Spirit, using the laying on of hands, as seen in Hebrews 6:

Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect: not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works and of faith towards God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms and imposition of hands,and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
​

As St. Paul speaks of the imposition (laying on) of hands after Baptism, so does it follow in the early Church - first the baptism, then the confirmation:

Hippolytus, (The Apostolic Tradition 21–22, A.D. 215)

"The bishop, imposing his hand on them, shall make an invocation, saying, ‘O Lord God, who made them worthy of the remission of sins through the Holy Spirit’s washing unto rebirth, send into them your grace so that they may serve you according to your will, for there is glory to you, to the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit, in the holy Church, both now and through the ages of ages. Amen.’ Then, pouring the consecrated oil into his hand and imposing it on the head of the baptized, he shall say, ‘I anoint you with holy oil in the Lord, the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit.’ Signing them on the forehead, he shall kiss them and say, ‘The Lord be with you.’ He that has been signed shall say, ‘And with your spirit.’ Thus shall he do to each"
​

As an aside, in the Mass today, all over the world, over 2000 years later, when the priest says "the Lord be with you" we say "and with your spirit."*

*Because of poorly translated Latin, in English since the '60's we've been saying "and also with you" although in Latin masses here and in other languages, the "and with your spirit" was preserved. In major liturgical corrections taking place this year at Advent in the U.S., we are reverting back to "and with your spirit."​

 

[Cruciform]

Yes, the fact that even those who are baptized for the remission of original sin still sin. It only shows that infant baptism is worthless.

...he pompously declares out of complete ignorance. :doh:

Infant Baptism
Early Teachings on Infant Baptism
Born Again in Baptism
INSTRUCTION ON INFANT BAPTISM

Baptism in the Scriptures & the Early Church
Baptism: Q & A​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Aimiel]

It's worthless.

 

[Cruciform]

It's worthless.

Aimiel's entirely unsubstantiated and completely non-authoritative theological opinion is worthless. (Thanks for proving my point from Post #202. :doh



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Aimiel]

That's not just rude, it's unfounded and lazy.

 

[chrysostom]

That's not just rude, it's unfounded and lazy.

but it is true

 

[Aimiel]

It is, for those with no ability to debate or change their pre-conceived notions (most of which people like yourself have are based upon worthless tradition and meaningless religious practices).

 

[Cruciform]

That's not just rude, it's unfounded and lazy.

Pot, meet Kettle (cf. Post #203). :doh:

In any case, how is my comment supposedly "rude"?---unless your theological preferences and opinions possess some sort of binding authority that we should all know about...?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

It is, for those with no ability to debate or change their pre-conceived notions (most of which people like yourself have are based upon worthless tradition and meaningless religious practices).

You can go ahead and apply all that to yourself, friend.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Aimiel]

You can go ahead and apply all that to yourself, friend.

I don't hold to tradition or even phony religion, unlike yourself... and: I'm not your friend. You're a religious hypocrite, with no understanding of Truth. Jesus battle cretins just like yourself throughout His Ministry. :duh:

 

[Cruciform]

I don't hold to tradition or even phony religion, unlike yourself...

Sure you do. Protestants (non-Catholics) follow their own religious traditions, just as Catholics follow the authoritative teaching Tradition of Christ's historic Church.

...and: I'm not your friend.

Up to you.

You're a religious hypocrite, with no understanding of Truth. Jesus battle cretins just like yourself throughout His Ministry.

Hey, don't go away mad... :wave2:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[chrysostom]

Hey, don't go away mad... :wave2:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

he won't go away
but
I am not sure if he is mad

 

[Aimiel]

Sure you do. Protestants (non-Catholics) follow their own religious traditions, just as Catholics follow the authoritative teaching Tradition of Christ's historic Church.

No, we read The Bible and recognize that Jesus didn't start a church but designated those who believe in Him as His Body, The Church. They don't need a denomination to make them evident, they have His Love for the brethren. They recognize Him in those who go to many different churches, no church and even those who aren't saved yet who one day will be; they do so by His Spirit Who lives in them. Those who don't have His Presence can't understand or recognize the things that He does, since He's hiding from those who are crafty and deceptive (yourself, for example).

 

[Cruciform]

No, we read The Bible and recognize that Jesus didn't start a church but designated those who believe in Him as His Body, The Church.

Yes, you're taught and conditioned to interpret the Bible in a distinctively non-Catholic way by the particular Protestant doctrinal traditions that you allow (whether or not you're aware of it) to guide and form your religious assumptions and beliefs. No one interprets the Bible in an ideological or theological vacuum, including you.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, you're taught and conditioned to interpret the Bible in a distinctively non-Catholic way by the particular Protestant doctrinal traditions that you allow (whether or not you're aware of it) to guide and form your religious assumptions and beliefs. No one interprets the Bible in an ideological or theological vacuum, including you.

You're quite right, since I don't live in a vacuum. The Holy Spirit, Who's living within me, has taught and conditioned me, and yes: He is DISTINCTLY non-catholic (read: non-religious) and He is Protestant, since the Romanist church is His enemy.

 

[Cruciform]

You're quite right, since I don't live in a vacuum. The Holy Spirit, Who's living within me, has taught and conditioned me...

Really? Me, too! (Not to mention, every single professed Christian who's ever lived, including every schismatic and heretic who ever cracked a Bible!) Sorry, but your appeal to "the Holy Spirit" as a means of baptizing your personal theological preferences just doesn't fly. Everything you post here merely proves what I observed in my previous post:

"Yes, you're taught and conditioned to interpret the Bible in a distinctively non-Catholic way by the particular Protestant doctrinal traditions that you allow (whether or not you're aware of it) to guide and form your religious assumptions and beliefs. No one interprets the Bible in an ideological or theological vacuum, including you."​

...and yes: He is DISTINCTLY non-catholic (read: non-religious) and He is Protestant, since the Romanist church is His enemy.

Now go ahead and actually document your claim. Demonstrate for us that the early Christian Church of the first, say, five centuries was not manifestly Catholic in its beliefs and teachings, and that it was actually in any way "Protestant" (even though "Protestantism" didn't exist until the 16th century!) in its fundamental beliefs and teachings. By all means, enlighten us.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[kmoney]

What is the current doctrine of purgatory?

I was doing some reading last night and it said that the doctrine has had some pretty significant changes in the past couple decades. Most recently by the current Pope.

 

[Aimiel]

Really? Me, too! (Not to mention, every single professed Christian who's ever lived, including every schismatic and heretic who ever cracked a Bible!) Sorry, but your appeal to "the Holy Spirit" as a means of baptizing your personal theological preferences just doesn't fly.

As I said: you cannot comprehend or even begin to understand Truths. All you know is things which you've been handed by the traditions of other dead men who are dead in their religious jeans, who've dropped their religious slime all over your slimy soul.

Now go ahead and actually document your claim.

Don't have to, you've already done so for me.

Demonstrate for us that the early Christian Church of the first, say, five centuries was not manifestly Catholic in its beliefs and teachings, and that it was actually in any way "Protestant" (even though "Protestantism" didn't exist until the 16th century!) in its fundamental beliefs and teachings. By all means, enlighten us.

The early church had nothing to do with what I was talking about; however, simply because they were pagan and foolish in many ways doesn't excuse your behavior. :duh:

 

[Cruciform]

As I said...

And as I answered (Post #209)...

All you know is things which you've been handed by the traditions of other dead men...

Right, such as Jesus Christ, his apostles, and their ordained successors... (You're really not helping your argument here.)

Don't have to, you've already done so for me.

Go ahead and cite the number of the post in which I supposedly document your claim that "the early Christian Church of the first, say, five centuries was not manifestly Catholic in its beliefs and teachings, and that it was actually in any way 'Protestant' (even though 'Protestantism' didn't exist until the 16th century!) in its fundamental beliefs and teachings." Still waiting... :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

What is the current doctrine of purgatory? I was doing some reading last night and it said that the doctrine has had some pretty significant changes in the past couple decades. Most recently by the current Pope.

Hmm...I'm not really sure what you mean by "changes." While it's true that Catholic doctrines are further explained and expanded upon in subsequent Church teaching, no formal dogma of the Church ever changes in its essential truths. I guess I would need to know what sorts of "changes" your source was referring to. For more info:

Purgatory in the Scriptures & the Early Church
Purgatory & Prayers for the Dead
Purgatory
The Roots of Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+