toldailytopic: The Catholic Church: God's official church? Or, theology gone astray?

[csuguy]

so where is the church Jesus built on a rock?

Everywhere - it is not limited to a denomination. See my earlier post for more details on my view of the catholic church.

 

[godrulz]

so where is the church Jesus built on a rock?

The rock is Peter's confession of Christ as Lord, God, Messiah, not Peter himself. The universal, invisible church of Christ is composed of all those who trust Christ alone for salvation. We will not know the totality of this until heaven. Believers are found in many visible expressions/local churches in various biblical denominations. Being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. A Christian may identify with a variety of denominations. Just being part of a church does not make one a Christian if they do not have a relationship with Christ.

 

[Sheila B]

No one church has perfect doctrine and perfect practice, including the early church and all Pauline churches were division, sin, etc. was present (read the Bible and show up at any given church today...your presence will make it imperfect despite his perfect salvation in us).

No perfect doctrine and no perfect practice? Subjectively, fine, as regards the thought word deeds and practices of individuals.
But objectively, we are then saying Jesus' Authority is not perfect.
That is, He said "All Authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me." This then is passed on to the Apostolic Church Leaders by the command for them to pass on all that He taught and said to them.
And He guarantees them His Divine Presence: I will be with you until the End of the world.

This objective Authority and Guidance can not be imperfect, can it? How can Christ lie or deceive or even nuancedly (is that a word?) decieve?

 

[godrulz]

We have His authority and presence to preach the gospel. This does not guarantee doctrinal purity or perfection of practice. The early church was led by the Spirit, but had divisions, doctrinal disputes, immorality, etc.

Apostolic Succession is a Catholic myth, not a biblical truth.

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostolic-succession.html

http://www.bible.ca/cath-apostolic-succession.htm

The changing, extra/contrabiblical doctrines of the RCC and the corruption in her midst should make you think twice.

The Word of God is the final authority, not imperfect churches, especially ones influenced by paganism, false tradition, fallible men, manmade organizations that go beyond Scripture.

I am not anti-Catholic and believe it is possible (but not automatic) for a Catholic to be a Christian.

 

[Sheila B]

Yes - but it is not the RCC - which came along some 300 years later.

It seems to me the same denial of Jesus' guarantee that He would be with the Apostles until the end of the Age.
He did not guarantee individual believers this.

You are saying for 300 years Jesus' guarantee was put on hold, denied them, not forth-coming.
That is impossible to reconcile with the Master's Words.

I will be with you until the end of the Age is not even a micro-second of lacking to the promise given, is it?

 

[godrulz]

The Great Commission is for all disciples, not just the original 12 Apostles. He is promising His authority and presence to all believers who preach His gospel!

 

[Nimrod]

I believe that anyone who believes they are worshipping the Creator IS, in fact, worshipping Him- God judges hearts, not theology.

Amen.

CCC 841 The Church's relation with the Muslims
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims"

Heck, the Catholic Church did more than what Jesus could do. Jesus could only save those who believe in Him. Catholic Church took it farther. They included the Muslims. Hoorah! for Catholics, without them the Muslims would be screwed.

 

[godrulz]

Given strained relations with the Pope and Muslims, I doubt they really believe Muslims are saved apart from a faith in the biblical Christ.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a135.htm

Perhaps there is some truth to your claim. If so, shame on Catholic leadership for compromising the gospel for the sake of inclusivism (funny how South American Catholics persecute Christian Pentecostals/evangelicals who agree with their doctrine of God/Christology; if they embrace Muslims, and I am not convinced they do, then this is bizarre and offensive/indefensible).

 

[Sheila B]

We have His authority and presence to preach the gospel. This does not guarantee doctrinal purity or perfection of practice. The early church was led by the Spirit, but had divisions, doctrinal disputes, immorality, etc.

As Paul says: ...so that those who are approved may be known.
That is, the divisions proved who was "with" Apostolic Authority and who was not, right?

Apostolic Succession is a Catholic myth, not a biblical truth.

We will ignore the 2000 years of history and look at the Biblical text.
Paul and Barnabas recieve their Apostleship from the elders of the Church at Antioch. The Holy Spirit says Set them apart. The Holy Spirit then sends them.
This is administered by the prayer, fasting, and laying on of hands (an ordination ceremony) by the elders of the Church at Antioch.
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to"us"!
They did not send themselves. Only "false apostles" send themselves, apart from authoritative ordination, according to Scripture.
Acts 13:2 and 3 and 4

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostolic-succession.html

The Bible shows a pattern through Paul and Barnabas. We can therebyknow all Apostolic ordination happened the same way, as it does today 2000 years later, and the Church does not accept un-authorized ordinations; they are declared invalid.

Not because they want to or do not want to: they have a Divine Command from the Master to run things the way He showed them to do it. All Authority on heaven and earth has been given to Me, Therefore go into all the world teaching all I have commanded you.

The changing, extra/contrabiblical doctrines of the RCC and the corruption in her midst should make you think twice.

The Word of God is the final authority, not imperfect churches, especially ones influenced by paganism, false tradition, fallible men, manmade organizations that go beyond Scripture.

Jesus' guarantee of guidance and His Divinde Presence cannot be denied to be in His Church.
Jesus died for this Body and He watches over her like a jealous lover. Each individual inside her or outside her, has freedom to accept or deny Apostolic declarations, but the Church has a Divine Master that is unmoved and unchanging. The Authority stands for all time. Sinners come and go, but the Divine guarantee of Authority and guidance: NEVER.

 

[Sheila B]

The Great Commission is for all disciples, not just the original 12 Apostles. He is promising His authority and presence to all believers who preach His gospel!

All the baptised are indeed sent. Mass means just that: Missa: sent!

But we need not deny the 3 year grooming and preparing and words of teaching: To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom, but not to them...
Too many examples to name! The whole of 3 years He focused on the Twelve and promised them 12 Thrones and Authority, not given in the same measure to all.

Specifically the so-called Great Commision- the final Breath of God was breathed upon the Eleven, not everyone. But through the Eleven... to all the world.

 

[Sheila B]

This church is made up of true believers who truly devote their lives to Christ.

At the end the angels will gather the church and cast out the bad fish from the good fish.

The Body has both saint and sinner and all in-between: in the True Church.
There is no true "invisible" church. That is a recent doctrine of men.

The Master has not put His Body underabushel basket, but put it up so all may see it. A mustard seed grown to enable all the birds of the air to find shelter in her branches. Leaven to lighten up all the loaves.

These are Biblical descriptions of the true Kingdom. The Master has not changed His mind.

 

[csuguy]

It seems to me the same denial of Jesus' guarantee that He would be with the Apostles until the end of the Age.
He did not guarantee individual believers this.

You are saying for 300 years Jesus' guarantee was put on hold, denied them, not forth-coming.
That is impossible to reconcile with the Master's Words.

I will be with you until the end of the Age is not even a micro-second of lacking to the promise given, is it?

It's not a matter of Jesus being with the Apostles or the RCC - yes I believe Jesus is with the RCC, I believe there are many good Christians in the RCC - In fact, this whole year I've only been attending Catholic Church... Well a college group really, but they have a short mass and what not and (other than me) it's all Catholics.

The question is whether or not the Apostles and the RCC, just because Jesus is with them, are infallible? Look at Peter, whom you hold as the foundation of the RCC - was he infallible? Look at the Church Father Clement of Alexandria - he interpreted the Eucharist figuratively rather than literally. Surely you would say both of these men had the HS, that Jesus was with them? Were they wrong or right? If wrong, does that mean Jesus really wasn't with them?

 

[Sheila B]

The rock is Peter's confession of Christ as Lord, God, Messiah, not Peter himself.

Andrew confessed first: And he went and got his brother Simon and said: Come, we have found the One Moses spoke of.
And Nathanael: You are theChrist, the Son of the Living God.
And the demons:
What have You to do with us? Have You come before the appointed time?

There is only one true Keyholder, as Jesus' command will never be denied. It cannot be altered by man, no matter how much the idea opposes human reason or preference.

And to you (GreeK: single) Simon, I give the Keys of the Kingdom.
To complete His Authoritative Command: Jesus gave him a new name. One individual received a new name.

 

[Sheila B]

The Word of God is the final authority, not imperfect churches, especially ones influenced by paganism, false tradition, fallible men, manmade organizations that go beyond Scripture.

Jesus guided from His Throne Above when the time was right for his Church to have a written word. He waited from 3 to 7 decades to allow them time to have a history to write down, as He did with the Hebrews. Biblical history.

I am not anti-Catholic and believe it is possible (but not automatic) for a Catholic to be a Christian.

Good of you to think that way. Your generosity will be rewarded at the end of your life I am sure.

 

[Sheila B]

CCC 841 The Church's relation with the Muslims
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims"

Heck, the Catholic Church did more than what Jesus could do. Jesus could only save those who believe in Him. Catholic Church took it farther. They included the Muslims. Hoorah! for Catholics, without them the Muslims would be screwed.

In My Father's House are many dwelling places. If it were not so, I would have told you.
All the locks have the same Keyed entry: Peter at the head of The Church; not alone, but with all the bishops and laity as One Body.

Why Peter and not Jesus? Jesus commanded it to be so. Jesus left earth temporarily, so that it indeed would be by faith, that all mankind freely chooses to follow Him. Peter with the Church remains behind, but is led from Above by Divine Guidance and Divine Presence, until the end of time.

 

[Sheila B]

Given strained relations with the Pope and Muslims, I doubt they really believe Muslims are saved apart from a faith in the biblical Christ.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a135.htm

Perhaps there is some truth to your claim. If so, shame on Catholic leadership for compromising the gospel for the sake of inclusivism (funny how South American Catholics persecute Christian Pentecostals/evangelicals who agree with their doctrine of God/Christology; if they embrace Muslims, and I am not convinced they do, then this is bizarre and offensive/indefensible).

Sweeping generalizations are not helpful.
The Cross of Christ is the salvation of all who accept this Divine Mercy, even at the last breath.
Christians will of course be held to a stricter account, for they have more truth.
God alone knows how to read the intent of the heart.

Having said all that, fools and sinners will be in the church until the end of time. The true Church has good fish and bad fish, wheat and tares. In the Church it is said: Let the evildoer still be evil and the filthy still be filthy; let the righteous still do right and the holy still be holy.

But, what is that to you? You follow Me.

 

[chrysostom]

Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter

that may be significant

 

[godrulz]

Does one have to be baptized Catholic to be saved? If so, I am excluded from heaven despite faith in the person and work of Christ:dizzy:

 

[Sheila B]

It's not a matter of Jesus being with the Apostles or the RCC - yes I believe Jesus is with the RCC, I believe there are many good Christians in the RCC - In fact, this whole year I've only been attending Catholic Church... Well a college group really, but they have a short mass and what not and (other than me) it's all Catholics.

Jesus is calling you big time. Remain in awe and love of Him and all will be well.

The question is whether or not the Apostles and the RCC, just because Jesus is with them, are infallible? Look at Peter, whom you hold as the foundation of the RCC - was he infallible? Look at the Church Father Clement of Alexandria - he interpreted the Eucharist figuratively rather than literally. Surely you would say both of these men had the HS, that Jesus was with them? Were they wrong or right? If wrong, does that mean Jesus really wasn't with them?

Great question. I am still awed and amazed at the extent of Apostolic Authority Jesus has given His Church. He lets them do and say and run things with such a freehand.
And not to strike them at being fools, for He knows we are all fools! He knew what was in man; no one had to tell Him.

It is only when the church seems to be about to scorch herself does He gently lean down and rescue her. My yoke is easy and My burden light. Gentle, gentle loving guidance.

My answer at the present moment: Jesus is in no rush. We are racing around like crazy, but not God. Gently, slowly, guiding with a tender light touch. Amazing!

 

[InHope]

CCC 841 The Church's relation with the Muslims
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims"

Heck, the Catholic Church did more than what Jesus could do. Jesus could only save those who believe in Him. Catholic Church took it farther. They included the Muslims. Hoorah! for Catholics, without them the Muslims would be screwed.

For an in-depth response, look here:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp

In short (and quoting from this site): "It means that God desires their salvation and has made plans for their salvation—plans that include giving them graces that lead in the direction of salvation and the Church. But that doesn’t mean that they can be saved by being nothing more than non-Jewish theists."