toldailytopic: Overpopulation. Is the world really over populated as some assert?

[DocJohnson]

Like China, amirite?

Not exactly the bastion of freedom and justice for all I was aiming for.

Hopefully when the poor of the world have loaded their plates with freedom and justice, they'll have room in their groaning stomachs to go back to the liberty buffet for a second round.

We'll never know until it happens.

 

[DocJohnson]

Also for additional lol:

It's not nearly as bad as the recession of the late 70s and early 80s. Although, with the direction this current administration is pushing us, it may get worse.

 

[Granite]

The Book of Revelations talks about the earth being zapped... a third of the forests destroyed and a third of the oceans and fresh water turning to blood... but that doesn't happen until the end times. The events that lead up to that are more political than economic.



Hopefully you'll see the signs a lot sooner than that.

It also talks about prostitutes who ride animals whilst drinking blood and sea monsters with seven heads, so, let's just cherrypick what we take literally and not, right?

 

[nicholsmom]

Yeah, we're overpopulated, in that critical resources required to sustain the world's population increase are going into short supply.

So your definition of overpopulation has nothing to do with space, but has to do with "critical resources." Let's have a look at those "critical resources," shall we?

I'm sure some of you have heard of Peak Oil. This isn't a scare tactic - there isn't an energy agency in the world who doesn't acknowledge that we're running out of produceable oil.

Oil is a critical resource? Man did not live before oil was pumped out of the planet? Please. What is more important here, life or convenience? We are smart, we humans. We'll find other ways to produce energy - wait, we have already: nuclear power. Problem solved. Next?

We're running our fish stocks into the ground. If you don't believe that, go to your local fish counter at the supermarket and see how many deepwater species are on the slab. They're there because our fleets now have to deepwater troll for slow-growing species because the shallow water species are tapping out. Ask yourself why wild salmon is so expensive when compared to farmed salmon. It wasn't always that way until recently when wild salmon stocks crashed.

I can live without wild salmon - farmed salmon is tasty :TomO: and just ask TH what he thinks of farm-raised catfish :chew: When all else fails, we can eat rabbits and hamsters. I'm not worried. One food source does not determine our survival.

This is funny:

We're even running out of clean water.

:rotfl: As if we can't clean water :rotfl:

Funnier yet:

We're running out of Helium which potentially puts an end to our fusion reactor dreams before they even start, as well as to arc welding and MRIs.

Oh no!!! :shocked: What ever will we do? Humans are using up all the helium on party balloons!!! :shocked:

This isn't anything like a full list of resources that we're facing shortages of as the world industrializes. It's just a few.

Better bring out the full list then - these are lame and lamer. And they have nothing whatever to do with sustainability of humanity. All they speak to is the convenience of not having to find new ways to manage and thrive.

What do we do about it? Apparently, nothing. Hell, it's happening already. The poorest people in the world are already getting it the hardest as the price of basic commodities slip out of reach. Food aid NGOs are already reporting signs of donor fatigue, so millions will just starve to death.

That only indicates that we need more people in wealthy countries so that there are more people to give :banana:

I predict starvation and some pretty ugly wars over resources but it would be nice to be persuaded otherwise, so let's hear it.

We're a very smart species. Relax.

 

[Flipper]

No, I don't think we are "overpopulated". Though as Flipper pointed out we do have some resource shortage issues to deal with in the near future. However, new technologies are constantly being developed that will address these issues. Access to food and water will be primary concerns.

I like to keep an eye on alternative technologies and management plans of various kinds because these are our only bail-out options.

There are some promising ideas, but they're chickens that shouldn't be counted until they're brought into industrialized production.

 

[DocJohnson]

It also talks about prostitutes who ride animals whilst drinking blood and sea monsters with seven heads, so, let's just cherrypick what we take literally and not, right?

Who's cherry-picking?

Granted, a lot of what's written in Revelations is extremely enigmatic, but that doesn't mean it can't be taken literally.

 

[elected4ever]

Also for additional lol:


Quote:
In the United States there has been a 41 percent surge in prices for wheat, corn, rice and other cereals over the past six months.

Do you believe this to be accurate? 41% increase becuse of.......?

 

[Granite]

Who's cherry-picking?

Granted, a lot of what's written in Revelations is extremely enigmatic, but that doesn't mean it can't be taken literally.

It depends on what any given observer decides to take literally or not.

 

[nicholsmom]

Also for additional lol:

In the United States there has been a 41 percent surge in prices for wheat, corn, rice and other cereals over the past six months.

You quoted that, but where's the source?

Do you know why the prices have surged, or are you assuming that it's over-consumption? Could it be, at least partially, due to the subsidizing of these crops? I know that corn has been subsidized in order to increase the production of corn-based ethanol (which process has proved to produce more carbon emissions than it reduces - I'll find the source for that if you'd like), and the result of that is increased corn prices. So I wouldn't be surprised at all to find a similar scenario for wheat and rice - do we produce rice in the USA? Maybe you'd better clarify that claim.

 

[elected4ever]

Also for additional lol:

Come to think of it, everything else has gone up as well...so your point is what?

 

[DocJohnson]

Come to think of it, everything else has gone up as well...so your point is what?

Maybe he's suggesting that simply because the prices have gone up, the supply has gone down?

 

[Flipper]

So your definition of overpopulation has nothing to do with space, but has to do with "critical resources." Let's have a look at those "critical resources," shall we?
Oil is a critical resource? Man did not live before oil was pumped out of the planet? Please. What is more important here, life or convenience? We are smart, we humans. We'll find other ways to produce energy - wait, we have already: nuclear power. Problem solved. Next?

I am gung-ho in favor of increased nuclear power production. Still, as I said, I was hardly comprehensive in my list of depleting resources. This is from The Times business section:

In 2001 the European Commission said that at the current level of uranium consumption, known uranium resources would last 42 years. With military and secondary sources, this life span could be stretched to 72 years. Yet this rate of usage assumes that nuclear power continues to provide only a fraction of the world’s energy supply. If capacity were increased six-fold, then the 72-year supply would last just 12 years.

Yeah, man survived just fine when petroleum was just an interesting oddity. It's just we lived in much, much lower population densities and with much shorter life expectancies. Let me know if you'd like to see the figures on that.

I can live without wild salmon - farmed salmon is tasty :TomO: and just ask TH what he thinks of farm-raised catfish :chew: When all else fails, we can eat rabbits and hamsters. I'm not worried. One food source does not determine our survival.

Boy, I see quality of life is a high priority with you.

This is funny:
:rotfl: As if we can't clean water :rotfl:

As if scrubbing water was an energy-free process that didn't create a large amount of waste water.

Funnier yet:
Oh no!!! :shocked: What ever will we do? Humans are using up all the helium on party balloons!!! :shocked:

What are you, stupid or do you just have problems reading for comprehension?

The next generation of nuclear power reactors - our current only hope of sustaining world populations at the level you seem comfortable with - will not function without helium.

Better bring out the full list then - these are lame and lamer. And they have nothing whatever to do with sustainability of humanity. All they speak to is the convenience of not having to find new ways to manage and thrive.

I notice that I support my arguments, not with assertions but with current evidence from generally unbiased sources. These things are happening now, whether you choose to accept them or not.

That only indicates that we need more people in wealthy countries so that there are more people to give :banana:

We're a very smart species. Relax.

Not smart enough to overthrow the basic forces of supply and demand, I don't think.

 

[Flipper]

Maybe he's suggesting that simply because the prices have gone up, the supply has gone down?

Or perhaps I'm suggesting that there's higher demand than ever before while the cost of production has increased?

Why would that be?

 

[DocJohnson]

Or perhaps I'm suggesting that there's higher demand than ever before while the cost of production has increased?

Why would that be?

Oh, I'm sure greed has nothing to do with it.

 

[chrysostom]

a train ride in India should convince anyone that we are not even close to being overpopulated

that doesn't mean we need not worry about how we use our resources

 

[El DLo]

I think people are confusing land-distribution with over population. Earth is a large planet (maybe not on a cosmic scale, but for our purpose it is). There's a lot of space to inhabit, and much of it isn't fully inhabited. The issue with overpopulation isn't crowding, it's resources. As was stated numerous times before, resources are diminishing (and will inevitably become scarce). So I don't think we currently face too much over population, but in 100-150 years, the issue will most likely be dire.

 

[DocJohnson]

I think people are confusing land-distribution with over population. Earth is a large planet (maybe not on a cosmic scale, but for our purpose it is). There's a lot of space to inhabit, and much of it isn't fully inhabited. The issue with overpopulation isn't crowding, it's resources. As was stated numerous times before, resources are diminishing (and will inevitably become scarce). So I don't think we currently face too much over population, but in 100-150 years, the issue will most likely be dire.

Yeah, that's what the doomsayers have been saying for hundreds of years now. I wonder when the human race will finally wake up and listen to them?

 

[Flipper]

Record U.S. trade driven by economic growth in developing countries and favorable exchange rates, combined with tight global grain supplies, resulted in record or near-record prices for corn, soybeans, and other food and feed grains in 2007. For corn, these factors, along with increased demand for ethanol, helped push prices from under $2 per bushel in 2005 to $3.40 per bushel in 2007. By the end of the 2006/07 crop year, over 2 billion bushels of corn (19 percent of the harvested crop) were used to produce ethanol, a 30-percent increase from the previous year. Higher corn prices motivated farmers to increase corn acreage at the expense of other crops, such as soybeans and cotton, raising their prices as well.

From the USDA.

And why are we producing more ethanol? It's part of the attempt to reduce energy dependence on fossil fuels which, as all the major energy producers agree, are running out in the sense that demand will soon be outstripping supply.


Also:

Food Prices Are Soaring, But Farmers Aren't Getting Richer

BAKER CITY (OR) - Soaring food prices have consumers grumbling, but don’t blame farmers and ranchers. They’re just passing along huge increases in the cost of fuel, feed and petroleum-based fertilizers and pesticides.

While some consumers have been calling for government action to rein in soaring food prices, Peggy Browne, president of the Baker County Farm Bureau, said that could force farmers and ranchers out of business.

“ Energy prices drive food price increases,” Browne said. “The cost of food has gone up pretty close to the amount input costs have gone up.”

The American Farm Bureau Federation’s April Marketbasket Survey shows the total retail cost of 16 basic grocery items in the first quarter of 2008 was $45.03, up about 8 percent from the fourth quarter of 2007.

A 5-pound bag of flour showed the largest retail price increase, up 69 cents to $2.39.

John Sartwelle, an AFBF economist, said USDA statistics show that despite retail grocery price increases, USDA statistics show the farmers’ and ranchers’ share of retail food prices has declined from roughly 33 percent in the 1970s to around 22 percent in the first quarter of 2008, or $9.90 of the $43.05 market-basket total.

Food Prices Are Soaring But Farmers Aren't Getting Any Richer - Chief Engineer Magazine


Did you guys forget so soon what it was like when gas was at $120-130 a barrel?

 

[Flipper]

Yeah, that's what the doomsayers have been saying for hundreds of years now. I wonder when the human race will finally wake up and listen to them?

Didn't you just cite Revelation?

 

[DocJohnson]

Didn't you just cite Revelation?

I certainly did. Perhaps you missed the point of that.