toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[glorydaz]

Matthew 15:7-8 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.​

Not a good choice of verses, since we who are IN CHRIST are not far from Him. His Spirit dwells IN us and we dwell IN HIM. So, you can't take a verse that is speaking to hypocrites...those who claim a faith they DO NOT have and apply it to those who have believed unto salvation ....having a heart purified by faith.

 

[IMJerusha]

The Acts 15 issues were concessions of practical wisdom in light of the transitional nature of the early church from a Jewish Christian base to a Gentile (and Jewish) Christian base. They are descriptive of a first century local situation, not a prescription for the normative Church Age. They related to principles of grey areas and not bringing unnecessary offense (Paul adapted to the target audience without compromising truth). They are not injunctions for NT Christianity outside of the first century milieu and early church incipiency that was to not be perpetuated in all cultures and all times. This is a hermeneutical issue.

NT Christianity. A marvelous term for replacement theology and bigotry. And you're worried about divisiveness in the Body! :chuckle:

There are significant issues to put Gentiles under the yoke of Judaism or to think that God wants us to perpetuate Jewish-Christian syncretism. This is categorically unbiblical, non-Pauline. You have freedom to do these things, but don't claim them to be normative, biblical, superior, necessary.

I'm no more under a yoke/burden than you are. I could care less about what is Pauline and what isn't. I care about obedience and faithfulness to God and Yeshua.

Jesus was a Jew, not a post-cross Christian,

That is really one of the silliest things I have ever heard!

so don't confuse the issues and think that North American evangelicals should wear sandals and be observant in a Jewish or Jewish Christian sense. The gospel negates the need for all of this.

The Gospel in no way negates the necessity for us to reflect Yeshua. I do not, however, wear sandals very often especially in Winter or practice bigotry.

 

[godrulz]

We are to reflect the CHARACTER OF JESUS, not His Judaism or His first century customs/culture. You are sweet, but....


Dispensationalism is NOT replacement theology. I accept the former, but reject the latter (you must be confusing it with Reformed Covenantalism).

You have freedom to do as you please, but don't assume it is biblical/orthodox in every way.

 

[IMJerusha]

We the CHARACTER OF JESUS, not His Judaism or His first century customs/culture. You are sweet, but....

I will reflect whatever Ruach HaKodesh leads me to reflect.

Dispensationalism is NOT replacement theology. I accept the former, but reject the latter (you must be confusing it with Reformed Covenantalism).

I accept Yeshua and seek obedience to God; much less to be confused about.

You have freedom to do as you please, but don't assume it is biblical/orthodox in every way.

In Yeshua, I have the freedom to be obedient to God and that is as Biblical/orthodox as it gets. Shabbat Shalom!

 

[godrulz]

I will reflect whatever Ruach HaKodesh leads me to reflect.



I accept Yeshua and seek obedience to God; much less to be confused about.



In Yeshua, I have the freedom to be obedient to God and that is as Biblical/orthodox as it gets. Shabbat Shalom!

Why is a Gentile pretending to be Jewish? Hebrew is not a language from heaven. Why not spout Koine Greek or Aramaic?

The Spirit does not lead contrary to His Word. Be careful to not use His name in vain by claiming divine leading when it is your modern fad not supported by Scripture.

 

[glorydaz]

Why is a Gentile pretending to be Jewish? Hebrew is not a language from heaven. Why not spout Koine Greek or Aramaic?

The Spirit does not lead contrary to His Word. Be careful to not use His name in vain by claiming divine leading when it is your modern fad not supported by Scripture.

Indeed, if the Lord wanted us to be doing it, we'd all be speaking the same way. Rather, it makes for a pretty exterior...kinda like the phylacteries worn by the Jews...to be seen of men.

Matt. 23:5-7
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

 

[godrulz]

I use Yahweh, Yeshua, God, Adonai, Elohim, Jehovah, etc. etc., but I will not try to be Jewish when I am a Gentile. I will not bring people to Christ and then try to get them to do OT things. I have the reality of Christ and will not elevate the shadows/types that were intended for theocratic Israel, not the NT Church.

If some think they can better reach Jews by retaining aspects of Judaism or being Messianic, go for it, but don't make this the norm in reaching North Americans, Africans, Chinese, etc.

This does not mean we should not know about, value, and incorporate aspects of our Jewish heritage and foundation as Christians (OT is the Word of God).

To enforce Sabbatarianism, anti-pork, circumcision, etc. is not consistent with NT revelation (which supersedes OT elementary truths). Heb. 6; Heb. 1:1-3; Col.; Romans, Galatians, etc.

I speak English, not Hebrew. If we are going to use Hebrew phrases, why not use Koine Greek ones? YHWH is valid, but so is theos or Kurios.

 

[Lighthouse]

Matthew 15:7-8 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.​

Neither I nor glorydaz agreed that all who call themselves Christian are actually saved.

We agreed that anyone who truly is saved cannot lose it, no matter what. However, we never agreed that those indwelt with Christ would do those things as easily as one without Christ. And I know that when one does I question their salvation. But I question it more when they apostatize.

There you go. Well said. :thumb:

I wonder why it is that those who think someone can lose his salvation doesn't understand what living in the Spirit actually means. There isn't a believer alive who wants to sin...we've been freed from the power it had over us. When we fail, we are duly chastened as sons. "That form of doctrine" is speaking of the Gospel and believing unto salvation .

Romans 6:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Exactly.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Neither I nor glorydaz agreed that all who call themselves Christian are actually saved.

We agreed that anyone who truly is saved cannot lose it, no matter what. However, we never agreed that those indwelt with Christ would do those things as easily as one without Christ. And I know that when one does I question their salvation. But I question it more when they apostatize.


Exactly.

Good post.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Some evangelicals will always interpret these scriptures as saved/lost but they are not...I think ALOT of christian who are saved do not have an awful lot of knowledge of God.

Would that include yourself or, are you exempt?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Neither I nor glorydaz agreed that all who call themselves Christian are actually saved.

We agreed that anyone who truly is saved cannot lose it, no matter what.

And I believe that no one is actually saved until the resurrection.
Until then, there is always a possibility of turning away, as Jesus and the apostles warned about over and over.

Once someone is truly saved at the resurrection, then salvation will have become a past event instead of a promise for the future.

And I know that when one does I question their salvation. But I question it more when they apostatize.

And I don't have that confusion. When someone turns away from the narrow way, they end up on the broad path that leads to destruction.
They do not have to stay on the broad path, but can return to the narrow way and not have their name blotted out from the book of life.
When someone apostatizes, they face the very real possibility of never being able to return to the narrow way, because they will have had their name blotted out from the book of life.

 

[IMJerusha]

Why is a Gentile pretending to be Jewish? Hebrew is not a language from heaven. Why not spout Koine Greek or Aramaic?

I'm not pretending to be Jewish. I freely admit that I'm a Gentile.

The Spirit does not lead contrary to His Word.

Amen!

Be careful to not use His name in vain by claiming divine leading when it is your modern fad not supported by Scripture.

I trust in the Ruach to guide me. I test His leading against Scripture. There is nothing about my faith expression that violates Scripture.

 

[IMJerusha]

I use Yahweh, Yeshua, God, Adonai, Elohim, Jehovah, etc. etc., but I will not try to be Jewish when I am a Gentile. I will not bring people to Christ and then try to get them to do OT things. I have the reality of Christ and will not elevate the shadows/types that were intended for theocratic Israel, not the NT Church.

If some think they can better reach Jews by retaining aspects of Judaism or being Messianic, go for it, but don't make this the norm in reaching North Americans, Africans, Chinese, etc.

This does not mean we should not know about, value, and incorporate aspects of our Jewish heritage and foundation as Christians (OT is the Word of God).

To enforce Sabbatarianism, anti-pork, circumcision, etc. is not consistent with NT revelation (which supersedes OT elementary truths). Heb. 6; Heb. 1:1-3; Col.; Romans, Galatians, etc.

I speak English, not Hebrew. If we are going to use Hebrew phrases, why not use Koine Greek ones? YHWH is valid, but so is theos or Kurios.

I grew up using both Greek and Hebrew. Why are you so bothered by my use of Hebrew? I've been led to where I am now and I'm content. I don't enforce the Sabbath, I observe it. You're sort of uneducated when it comes to Messianic Judaism but mostly, you don't know the God you claim. Very sad.

 

[godrulz]

I don't know God I claim? Huh? We worship the same God if you are trinitarian. The problem is that your ecclesiology is not NT biblical. You are mixing shadows/types with fulfillment in Christ.

There is also a spectrum of beliefs within Messianic Judaism, so I cannot comment on your version.

 

[IMJerusha]

I don't know God I claim? Huh? We worship the same God if you are trinitarian. The problem is that your ecclesiology is not NT biblical. You are mixing shadows/types with fulfillment in Christ.

There is also a spectrum of beliefs within Messianic Judaism, so I cannot comment on your version.

If one understands that God never changes, it doesn't matter if you're in the OT or the NT. The NT does not replace the OT. The fulfillment of Yeshua does not negate God and certainly doesn't replace Him. My ecclesiology is most definitely Biblical. I'm not embracing Yeshua to leave God behind.
I'm not interested in your comments regarding the various beliefs of Messianic Judaism. They aren't pertinent to the discussion surrounding the OP. Three nights ago, you started questioning me personally about my faith expression and you haven't stopped. What's the point of that? Next thing you know, you'll be asking the name of my synagogue and griping that I call it that as opposed to "church".

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I grew up using both Greek and Hebrew. Why are you so bothered by my use of Hebrew? I've been led to where I am now and I'm content. I don't enforce the Sabbath, I observe it. You're sort of uneducated when it comes to Messianic Judaism but mostly, you don't know the God you claim. Very sad.

You have the right to use any language you wish! However,
you must be mindful of the fact that, some people (perhaps
most) won't know what you're talking about! That may
hinder your message!

 

[IMJerusha]

You have the right to use any language you wish! However,
you must be mindful of the fact that, some people (perhaps
most) won't know what you're talking about! That may
hinder your message!

I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T!!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T!!!

Some may not bother looking! Your message/statement is in vain, then!

 

[IMJerusha]

Some may not bother looking! Your message/statement is in vain, then!

God is in Control!

 

[Lighthouse]

And I believe that no one is actually saved until the resurrection.
Until then, there is always a possibility of turning away, as Jesus and the apostles warned about over and over.

But never Paul. I wonder why that is...:think:

Once someone is truly saved at the resurrection, then salvation will have become a past event instead of a promise for the future.

Stuck in the old dispensation, I see.

And I don't have that confusion. When someone turns away from the narrow way, they end up on the broad path that leads to destruction.
They do not have to stay on the broad path, but can return to the narrow way and not have their name blotted out from the book of life.
When someone apostatizes, they face the very real possibility of never being able to return to the narrow way, because they will have had their name blotted out from the book of life.

What confusion?

And as for that last part, if true then the parable of the Prodigal Son is a lie; are you calling Jesus a liar?