toldailytopic: Legalism: what is it? And how do you deal with it?

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Exactly. Paul also said the "law is for the lawless," implying there are those who by nature (regenerated Holy Spirit filled nature, that is) do not need an external law because they are going to behave in accordance with it even if no law was given.

You are teaching the heresy of sinless perfection. You are not in Christ. You have a demon of religion and self-righteousness. Unless you repent, you will go to hell. This is not a joke, not an insult, or an opinion. YOU are headed straight to hell.

To give an example: I don't need a law against dropping acid because I have no desire to drop acid. It's not the law that's keeping me from doing it, it's just my nature. I don't need the law to tell me not to do it but those who are lawless need it, as Paul said.

A complete perversion of what Paul said. You do not know one single person in the world who lives now, or who has ever lived (other than Christ) who does not fall short of the glory of God. You are deluded beyond unbelief.

People who think that they have the ability to compare themselves to God's standard of perfection, and then make judgments as to whether or not they are falling short, not only abolishing the purpose of the Law, but they completely destroy the intent of God's grace!

You and andyc are not only preaching a false gospel, but the most destructive unrealistic pile of crap ever proclaimed on this site or anywhere. May God send Satan to bring both of you to the end of your self-righteousness.

 

[Krsto]

To add to my previous post - the New Covenant as promised in Jeremiah 31:31 and fulfilled in the dispensation of grace through God's mediator of that covenant, Jesus Christ, is what we should be living. The Old Covenant was to come to an end as is evident in Jeremiah.

 

[Krsto]

You are teaching the heresy of sinless perfection. You are not in Christ. You have a demon of religion and self-righteousness. Unless you repent, you will go to hell. This is not a joke, not an insult, or an opinion. YOU are headed straight to hell.

A complete perversion of what Paul said. You do not know one single person in the world who lives now, or who has ever lived (other than Christ) who does not fall short of the glory of God. You are deluded beyond unbelief.

People who think that they have the ability to compare themselves to God's standard of perfection, and then make judgments as to whether or not they are falling short, not only abolishing the purpose of the Law, but they completely destroy the intent of God's grace!

You and andyc are not only preaching a false gospel, but the most destructive unrealistic pile of crap ever proclaimed on this site or anywhere. May God send Satan to bring both of you to the end of your self-righteousness.

If I were teaching sinless perfection then you would have a point.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

If I were teaching sinless perfection then you would have a point.

You are, and I do.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

krsto... I will ask you what I have asked godrulz who also teaches sinless perfection

Please provide one defining moment in your day when you do not fall short of the glory of God. Name one instance when you are as perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Based on God's standard of righteousness, name one day when you have not sinned.

 

[Krsto]

krsto... I will ask you what I have asked godrulz who also teaches sinless perfection

Please provide one defining moment in your day when you do not fall short of the glory of God.

CAN'T BE DONE.

Name one instance when you are as perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL.

Based on God's standard of righteousness, name one day when you have not sinned.

I WISH.

Maybe the only real difference between you and me is that when I sin and I am aware that I sin I confess my sins to my Father in heaven and he is faithful and just to forgive me of my sin and cleanse me from unrighteousness. I actually believe God wants us to improve by the ability he gives us with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we grow in him and are being continually transformed and conformed to the image of Christ and less conformed to the standards of this godless world. I on occasion look at the qualifications for elders and ministers (some call them "deacons") in the bible and see how I measure up. If the Holy Spirit convicts me of where I need improvement I go to God and ask for his divine help to change my nature so I am not like that. I do not look in a mirror, see my rotten condition, and then leave it at that. I actually believe God works with his children to make them more like Christ.

You should try this sometime. You might find an aspect of the Christian faith and your relationship with God that you have been missing and be glad you found it. I think you are afraid that it will lead to a legalistic and slavish mindset but really God will not lead you in that direction. His desire for you is to free you from the bondage of sin so you can live in the joy of the Lord.

There was a time in my life, immediately following when I got filled with the Holy Spirit, that I would tell pastors I don't want to hear their mamby pamby sermons if I don't get convicted of sin because God was doing such an incredible work of purifying me of my sins and if I did not get convicted of my sin I felt I was getting short changed because without the conviction I couldn't take my sin before God and experience his cleansing work.

Did I ever attain sinless perfection? No. Will I? No. Do I believe it's possible? Only if God provides the ability and so far he has only done that for Jesus Christ because he is the only one he needed as a sinless sacrifice.

I don't see the character qualifications given for elders and ministers as a higher standard, just a Christian standard which all Christians should attain to and if a person can't he shouldn't be an elder or minister because he is not being a very good manifestation of the nature of God and therefore a poor witness of Christ, no matter how gifted he is as a preacher or whatever.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Maybe the only real difference between you and me is that when I sin and I am aware that I sin I confess my sins to my Father in heaven and he is faithful and just to forgive me of my sin and cleanse me from unrighteousness.

Wait a minute, now you are contradicting yourself. You said that you no longer sin because you "do not need an external law because they (you) are going to behave in accordance with it (the Law) even if no law was given."

Either you fall short or you do not. You are double-minded and unstable in all your ways. You are a hypocrite.

Also, no where in the Bible does it teach that God takes into account the sins of a believer. A believer is in Christ and in Him there is no sin. We ARE the righteousness of God in Christ, not because in the flesh we do not fall short, but because we have died to sin, and are a new creation in Him.

It's amazing how arrogant and bold you idiots are to come on a website when you know NOTHING about the Gospel and what it means to be in Christ.

I actually believe God wants us to improve by the ability he gives us with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we grow in him and are being continually transformed and conformed to the image of Christ and less conformed to the standards of this godless world.

YOU may believe that, but that is because YOU have never come to Christ. Paul doesn't believe that, and neither does Jesus.

I on occasion look at the qualifications for elders and ministers (some call them "deacons") in the bible and see how I measure up

Then you're an idiot. Jesus said you are to be as perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, not as perfect at some moron in your church.

If the Holy Spirit convicts me of where I need improvement I go to God and ask for his divine help to change my nature so I am not like that.

You are messed up. There are so many things wrong with what you just said, where do we begin?

1. The Holy Spirit does NOT convict any child of God of sin. That is a LIE. The Bible does not teach that, and you have no reason to believe that.

2. YOU cannot "change" your nature. You are either a new creation in Christ, who died with Him, and was raised to new life, or you are by nature a child of wrath, having never been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ.

YOU have NO IDEA what you are talking about. When you are humble enough to listen, I will be thrilled to direct you on the right path.

You should try this sometime

Been there, done that.

There was a time in my life, immediately following when I got filled with the Holy Spirit, that I would tell pastors I don't want to hear their sermons if I don't get convicted of sin because God was doing such an incredible work of purifying me of my sins and if I did not get convicted of my sin I felt I was getting short changed because without the conviction I couldn't take my sin before God and experience his cleansing work.

1. There is no second experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit who are a temple of the Holy Spirit. You either have Him or you do not. If you are charismatic/pentecostal, you are in a cult. I know, because I was one for 10 years, and know many of it's leaders personally.

2. God does not convict believers of sin. He convicts us of our righteousness in Christ

3. A believer is freed from ALL sin when he dies to sin, having been crucified with Christ. He is not continually being "purified" from sin.

Again, you know NOTHING about the Gospel, and are making a fool of yourself.

Get saved.

 

[andyc]

Exactly. Paul also said the "law is for the lawless," implying there are those who by nature (regenerated Holy Spirit filled nature, that is) do not need an external law because they are going to behave in accordance with it even if no law was given.

To give an example: I don't need a law against dropping acid because I have no desire to drop acid. It's not the law that's keeping me from doing it, it's just my nature. I don't need the law to tell me not to do it but those who are lawless need it, as Paul said.

That is the principle we should be operating on as Christians: transformation by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in our lives so that we won't need anyone to tell us what to do. We will be self-governed and it will be in accordance to God's will for us.

:thumb:

That's right.
Under the old covenant, the animal sacrifices atoned for peoples sin, but they couldn't cleanse the guilty conscience. Although God forgave, the sinner was always reminded that they were sinful in their heart because of their natural desire to sin. However, the blood of Christ not only atones for our sin, it cleanses the heart of the sinner.

Acts 13:38-39
38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:8-9
8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Heb 9:8-9
8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience——

The Spirit of the law is the nature of Christ which we receive when we are born again.

 

[elohiym]

The Spirit of the law is the nature of Christ which we receive when we are born again.

But if you received the nature of Christ, then logically you would never sin at all, which is why I'm having difficulty understanding what you believe. On one hand, you state unequivocally that you don't commit certain sins, like covet. On the other hand, you tacitly imply that you do occasionally, but rarely, sin. Since Christ did not sin at all, being God, it makes no sense that could sin at all having his nature.

 

[Krsto]

But if you received the nature of Christ, then logically you would never sin at all, which is why I'm having difficulty understanding what you believe. On one hand, you state unequivocally that you don't commit certain sins, like covet. On the other hand, you tacitly imply that you do occasionally, but rarely, sin. Since Christ did not sin at all, being God, it makes no sense that could sin at all having his nature.

Speaking for andy, if I may, being conformed to the image of Christ is a PROCESS, not a one time event. Jesus is our goal and Jesus is our method as he works in us through faith.

As an aside, your statement, "Christ did not sin at all, being God," shows a common misunderstanding of who Christ was. I see this misunderstanding mostly with Catholics. Jesus was a man like you and I, born of a woman, born under the law, able to be tempted just like you and I are able to be tempted and in fact it says in Hebrews he was tempted on all points like as we and we also know of when the devil tempted him 3 times. Now add to this the fact that God can not be tempted (per James) and you have some concluding Jesus was not tempted, thereby disregarding what we know to be true about Jesus being tempted.

So how do we get around this?

It's really quite simple. Whatever you believe about Jesus being God put that aside and look at him as a man. The man Christ Jesus was tempted, not God. The devil wasn't asking God to throw himself off the temple or turn rocks to bread, he was asking a man to do that. Jesus refused, not because he was incapable as God, but because he was sumitted to God as a man.

Some have a hard time seperating the humanity of Christ and the deity of Christ and many creeds say you can't do that but who cares, they are just man made creeds. Also, it was the man Jesus who prayed to his Father in heaven.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Speaking for andy, if I may, being conformed to the image of Christ is a PROCESS, not a one time event.

Anti-Christ, unbiblical, heresy.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

As an aside, your statement, "Christ did not sin at all, being God," shows a common misunderstanding of who Christ was. I see this misunderstanding mostly with Catholics. Jesus was a man like you and I, born of a woman, born under the law, able to be tempted just like you and I are able to be tempted and in fact it says in Hebrews he was tempted on all points like as we and we also know of when the devil tempted him 3 times. Now add to this the fact that God can not be tempted (per James) and you have some concluding Jesus was not tempted, thereby disregarding what we know to be true about Jesus being tempted.

So how do we get around this?

It's really quite simple. Whatever you believe about Jesus being God put that aside and look at him as a man. The man Christ Jesus was tempted, not God. The devil wasn't asking God to throw himself off the temple or turn rocks to bread, he was asking a man to do that. Jesus refused, not because he was incapable as God, but because he was sumitted to God as a man.

Some have a hard time seperating the humanity of Christ and the deity of Christ and many creeds say you can't do that but who cares, they are just man made creeds. Also, it was the man Jesus who prayed to his Father in heaven.

Here we go, another false Jesus who is double-minded, with two souls, two natures, and two identities.

Who died on the cross?

 

[elohiym]

Speaking for andy, if I may, being conformed to the image of Christ is a PROCESS, not a one time event.

I'd prefer Andy to speak for himself, but you are welcome to join in.

To your point, I disagree.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[elohiym]

It's really quite simple. Whatever you believe about Jesus being God put that aside and look at him as a man.

Actually, it becomes quite complicated if I put aside the truth that Jesus is God. Indeed, the gospel becomes untenable if Jesus is not God.

 

[Krsto]

Wait a minute, now you are contradicting yourself. YouT said that you no longer sin NEVER SAID THAT because you "do not need an external law because they (you) are going to behave in accordance with it (the Law) even if no law was given." DON'T READ INTO THIS A BLANKET STATEMENT. I GAVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE (DROPPING ACID) AND I COULD GIVE YOU MANY MORE BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN I BELIEVE I DON'T SIN. YOU HAVE TO READ ME LIKE THE BIBLE, TAKE ALL I SAY INTO CONSIDERATION, IN OTHER WORDS, DON'T TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT.
Either you fall short or you do not. You are double-minded and unstable in all your ways. You are a hypocrite.

Also, no where in the Bible does it teach that God takes into account the sins of a believer. YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT SIN IN REGARDS TO SALVATION. I'M TALKING ABOUT OUR DAILY WALK WITH CHRIST. A believer is in Christ and in Him there is no sin. WHY THEN THE FREQUENT EXHORTATIONS IN THE NT TO NOT SIN? We ARE the righteousness of God in Christ, not because in the flesh we do not fall short, but because we have died to sin, and are a new creation in Him.

It's amazing how arrogant and bold you idiots are to come on a website when you know NOTHING about the Gospel and what it means to be in Christ.

YOU may believe that, but that is because YOU have never come to Christ. Paul doesn't believe that, and neither does Jesus. DOESN'T BELIEVE WE CAN IMPROVE OUR LOT IN LIFE BY GETTING RID OF OUR SIN? SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE FALLEN INTO THE TRAP PAUL WARNED AGAINST WHEN HE SAID TO NOT LET GRACE BE AN EXCUSE TO SIN. "GRACE, GRACE, I CAN SIN ALL I WANT. I AM IN CHRIST, THEREFOR THERE IS NO SIN." IS THIS WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

Then you're an idiot. Jesus said you are to be as perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, not as perfect at some moron in your church. WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE MORONS IN MY CHURCH? HAVE YOU BEEN SPYING OUT THE LIBERTY WE HAVE IN CHRIST?

You are messed up. There are so many things wrong with what you just said, where do we begin?

1. The Holy Spirit does NOT convict any child of God of sin. That is a LIE. The Bible does not teach that, and you have no reason to believe that.

2. YOU cannot "change" your nature. I WOULDN'T WANT TO CHANGE MY NATURE. THAT LEADS TO LEGALISM, ASCETICISM, CATHOLICISM, AND A FEW OTHER ISMS I HAVE NO INTEREST IN. BUT GOD IS IN THE BUSINESS OF CHANGING US. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE NEW COVENANT? You are either a new creation in Christ, who died with Him, and was raised to new life, or you are by nature a child of wrath, having never been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. YUP. AGREED.

YOU have NO IDEA what you are talking about. When you are humble enough to listen, I will be thrilled to direct you on the right path. IF I WERE TO OPERATE BY YOUR THEOLOGY THEN I COULD NEVER BE ANY MORE HUMBLE THAN I AM NOW SO WHEN WOULD I EVER BE GOOD ENOUGH TO BE YOUR STUDENT? SEEMS LIKE I WOULD BE SOL.

Been there, done that.



1. There is no second experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit who are a temple of the Holy Spirit. You either have Him or you do not. If you are charismatic/pentecostal, you are in a cult. I know, because I was one for 10 years, and know many of it's leaders personally. I'M A CHRISTIAN, WHO HAPPENS TO BE ATTENDING A BAPTIST CHURCH.

2. God does not convict believers of sin. He convicts us of our righteousness in Christ

3. A believer is freed from ALL sin when he dies to sin, having been crucified with Christ. He is not continually being "purified" from sin. THAT'S UNFORTUNATE. IS THAT WHY IT SEEMS SOMETIMES THERE IS NOT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHRISTIANS AND NON-CHRISTIANS?

Again, you know NOTHING about the Gospel, and are making a fool of yourself.

Get saved. SO FAR YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED THROUGH YOUR OWN WITNESS ANY REASON WHY I WOULD WANT TO FOLLOW IN YOUR FOOTSTEPS. I DON'T WANT TO BE A CARNAL CHRISTIAN.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Krsto... You need to reformat your last post. It's very confusing as to who said what.

 

[Krsto]

Krsto... You need to reformat your last post. It's very confusing as to who said what.

Except for the BOLDS that are your BOLDS, the words in BOLD are mine.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Except for the BOLDS that are your BOLDS, the words in BOLD are mine.

Learn how to use the quote feature, and I'll respond.

 

[andyc]

But if you received the nature of Christ, then logically you would never sin at all, which is why I'm having difficulty understanding what you believe.

Most of the time, the sins that Christians commit doesn't usually have anything to do with the law. A Christian tends to struggle with issues like hate, pride, sexual lust, unforgiveness, jealousy, laziness, disobedience, selfish ambition, greed etc.

An old testament Jew could obey the letter of the law 100%, but in his heart he could be filled with sinful thoughts and desires. A whitewashed sepulchre.

On one hand, you state unequivocally that you don't commit certain sins, like covet.

I don't mean that a Christian cannot covet, and I may have in the past, but usually I have no desire to be covetous, so I don't get tempted by it.

On the other hand, you tacitly imply that you do occasionally, but rarely, sin.

The sins described in the law of Moses that is. Most Christians today wouldn't struggle to keep the ten commandments.

Since Christ did not sin at all, being God, it makes no sense that could sin at all having his nature.

The flesh has a will of its own, and sometimes we give in to it, but there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.

 

[Krsto]

I'm curious Sozo, did you come up with this doctrine on your own or are you part of some group that teaches what you teach?