toldailytopic: Legalism: what is it? And how do you deal with it?

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for March 12th, 2010 11:00 AM

toldailytopic: Legalism: what is it? And how can you deal with it?

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[MaryContrary]

I like this definition:

"Legalism is the notion that a sinner can, by his own efforts, or by the power of the Holy Spirit in his life, do some work to obtain or retain his salvation. Some legalists think man has free will and can perform good works if he just sets his mind to it, thereby obtaining the favor of God. This type of legalist thinks that a sinner can believe the Gospel on his own steam. Other legalists think that a sinner does not have free will, that any good he does is done by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him, and it is these good deeds done by the power of the Holy Spirit that obtain or help obtain, retain or help retain, his salvation. Both types of legalists, but especially the latter, may acknowledge that Christ's work of obedience is necessary for salvation, but both deny that Christ's work is sufficient for salvation. Both types of legalists assert that to Christ's work must be added the works of the sinner, done either under his own steam, or by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is what makes them legalists: their shared belief in the incompleteness or insufficiency of the work of Christ outside of them. They may differ on what constitutes good works; they may differ on whether only God's law or church law as well is to be obeyed; but they agree that the work of Christ alone is insufficient for their final salvation."

I didn't write that and can't remember where I got it from, though. :idunno:

I think there's another use that's applicable and usually springs naturally from the above, in that one becomes so focused on whatever "law" that is to supply righteousness that they distort and lose sight of the law itself.

 

[Persephone66]

Umm look it up on wikipedia?

 

[Ktoyou]

Legalism is the assumption that the law is given by God for people to fulfill in their lives is possible and necessary for us to earn our way back to God. This is most relevant among Orthodox Jews and some sects of Muslims. The law ia revelation of sin; no one can live according to the law. Those who follow the law, do so in a less than full realization of the law and its intention. The sacrifice of God through the person of Jesus Christ has replaced the law and given humanity an authentic means to enter heaven. The law teaches us the reason why we needed a Saviour, for only God can make us worthy.

 

[elohiym]

To me, legalism is trying to relate to God through laws and subjective standards instead of love which is not subject to any law. Love is above the law, like God Himself.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Great answers so far...

How would you (or should) you go about handling those that are bringing legalism into your church or family?

 

[MaryContrary]

Great answers so far...

How would you (or should) you go about handling those that are bringing legalism into your church or family?

:maxi:



What? lain:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:maxi:

What? lain:

:chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:maxi:

What? lain:

I think legalism creeping into a church is one of the most destructive forces in existence.

I don't think there is much you can do to change the beliefs of most legalists (I have seen them up close as I am sure many of you have as well). Therefore I think you need to purge them from the congregation as quickly as possible.

Kick'em out!

 

[elohiym]

Great answers so far...

How would you (or should) you go about handling those that are bringing legalism into your church or family?

Avoid if family, purge if church member.

 

[chatmaggot]

Umm look it up on wikipedia?

Wikipedia describes how to deal with it?

 

[Cracked]

I think legalism creeping into a church is one of the most destructive forces in existence.

I don't think there is much you can do to change the beliefs of most legalists (I have seen them up close as I am sure many of you have as well). Therefore I think you need to purge them from the congregation as quickly as possible.

Kick'em out!

I suppose I would like to see your definition of "legalism" and "legalist".

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Here are three of the ways I have defined legalism over the years...


Legalism is the proud, self-confident stance, of one who has not yet been reduced to the helplessness of faith.

Legalism is seeking to achieve forgiveness and acceptance from God through obedience to God.

Legalism is the delusion of the flesh’s ability to deal with sin.

 

[Dena]

I was taught that legalism is coming up with your own strict rules for behavior (dress, church attendance) and insisting that every other person on earth must adhere to those are they are raging sinners.

 

[Ktoyou]

Here are three of the ways I have defined legalism over the years...


Legalism is the proud, self-confident stance, of one who has not yet been reduced to the helplessness of faith.

Legalism is seeking to achieve forgiveness and acceptance from God through obedience to God.

Legalism is the delusion of the flesh’s ability to deal with sin.

Yes, an one more. Legalism suggests the work Christ did on the cross was not good enough!:sigh:

 

[Sonrise]

I see a lot of problems that could rise from answers here on this subject.

Like, Knight, if you kick them out of the church...could that cause dissension to the point of a church split?

Mary C...is it legalistic to trust Holy Spirit to work through you?

Ktoyou...good post. Nothing to disagree on...

Can we become legalistic in trying to deal with the problem? That is something I am trying to avoid myself.

I see this as a seducing spirit...trying to take away the joy of salvation. And I know only one way to deal with it...Let Holy Spirit examine my heart, and repent...and pray for those who are trapped in it. Watching that my own foot is not ensnared.

What I know for sure if it is family matters...I don't have the power to deal with it...but He does. So pray and wait.

 

[MaryContrary]

Mary C...is it legalistic to trust Holy Spirit to work through you?

Yes, if you mean work toward my righteousness. I think I'm accounted as righteous right now and no work need be done to establish or maintain that. The work the Holy Spirit does in me and through me is not toward my righteousness but toward my good and those to whom I may do good.

:think:

If there's any confusion on what the heck the difference is between "righteousness" and "good" in that last sentence, just replace "good" with "health" or "blessing" or even "benefit", and that should make it a bit clearer.

****

Also, I'mma butt in. Cause I'm just like that.

Like, Knight, if you kick them out of the church...could that cause dissension to the point of a church split?

Are you thinking Matthew 12:25? Good point, especially if even Satan is smarter than that. But we're talking (I think) about folks that come into the church attempting to undermine the very foundations that church rests upon. If we are right and legalism is destructive then that's not a house divided at all. It's home defense.

Can we become legalistic in trying to deal with the problem? That is something I am trying to avoid myself.

Remember, we're talking about doing something in the attempt to attain or maintain righteousness (a state in which we are worthy of salvation). If we reject legalism it isn't in the attempt to attain or maintain righteousness but to avoid something destructive that undermines the very reason we do any good thing.

Legalism: Do good that you can be saved.
Rejecting legalism: Do good so that good will be done.

 

[Ktoyou]

I was taught that legalism is coming up with your own strict rules for behavior (dress, church attendance) and insisting that every other person on earth must adhere to those are they are raging sinners.

Correct! modern legalism, unlike the law on the Old Testament, presumes that man made rules, such as not drinking alcoholic beverages, not dancing, no card playing and other man-made moralities are necessary to be a good Christian. The most troublesome of these is the idea that these works are necessary to attain salvation. :sigh:

All work meaningful to God is that which we do after being born again to the Body of Christ and guided my Grace through the Holy Spirit. No one can build a stairway to heaven!

 

[Sonrise]

Actually Mary it was this scripture that was in my mind...

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


I do understand a bit better what you are saying though. Perhaps our understanding of salvation is different, because I see it both positional, and experiential. Not to attain righteousness though, for that is always His ascribed to us.

 

[bybee]

Good question

Good question

Great answers so far...

How would you (or should) you go about handling those that are bringing legalism into your church or family?

Three of my children are quoting proper behavior to me regarding another of my children who I am attempting to help. Love doesn't quit! They point out how irrational is my behavior, how I am contributing to the problem and so on. But my heart tells me that love will win in the end. The outcome is in God's hands. Legalisms make things small. Legalisms will throw the baby out with the bathwater. Love makes room. Love says, "We can do it!" Let's keep trying. In the church I try to ask questions of where a certain action will lead? This usually sparks some healthy debate. peace, bybee