toldailytopic: Is Mitt Romney pro-life?

[eameece]

Where?

Talking to Pontius Pilate before he was crucified. John 19:11

It's not even about retribution; it's about justice and punishment.

It is only about retribution. Punishing someone by killing him kinda defeats the purpose. Nor is death a deterrent.

Do you think it's about humility?

How far do you take it? Do you let a man who has broken into your house kill you an your family?

If he does that should the government let him go?

Turning the other cheek is an act of power, for the reason you said above. The issue is what Jesus taught, not what I think. I don't know how far I myself would take it; definitely not that far. But non-resistance and going along with an opponent's energy and redirecting it against him or her can be an effective way to deal with some things, just as they teach in Aikido.

Did God give them or not?

As I said; the authors were inspired by God, and the authors gave it. Ezekiel is not Jesus. Each of us can be inspired by God too. Surrendering your mind and heart to authors from 2500 years ago, may be the kind of religion you believe in, but it's not a modern religion, but an authoritarian one. You claim all these pronouncements in the Bible came from God; I claim they came from men like you and me, and that to bow down to them is idolatry.

You were actually making some cogent arguments, although I disagree. When you resort to "you are an idiot," the discussion is over.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Either one can be, depending on the circumstances. Jesus gave out lots of fish. Republicans support the idea of doing neither.

Funny, I know many who do just that. Seems you are quite biased or deliberately lied there.

Tell me what is stopping you and your ultra liberal friends from helping others? Why do you need the government to do it for you?

 

[Lighthouse]

Talking to Pontius Pilate before he was crucified. John 19:11

That's not what He meant.

Jesus was speaking of that fact that this was part of God's plan and that God was allowing it to happen.

It is only about retribution. Punishing someone by killing him kinda defeats the purpose. Nor is death a deterrent.

Then point me to a single dead criminal that will commit another crime...

Also, God disagrees with you:

And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.
-Deuteronomy 13:10-11

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
-Ecclesiastes 8:11

Turning the other cheek is an act of power, for the reason you said above. The issue is what Jesus taught, not what I think. I don't know how far I myself would take it; definitely not that far. But non-resistance and going along with an opponent's energy and redirecting it against him or her can be an effective way to deal with some things, just as they teach in Aikido.

And yet Jesus never said the government should take that approach, did He?

As I said; the authors were inspired by God, and the authors gave it. Ezekiel is not Jesus. Each of us can be inspired by God too. Surrendering your mind and heart to authors from 2500 years ago, may be the kind of religion you believe in, but it's not a modern religion, but an authoritarian one. You claim all these pronouncements in the Bible came from God; I claim they came from men like you and me, and that to bow down to them is idolatry.

So when it reads, "...so saith the Lord your God," it doesn't really mean that?

You were actually making some cogent arguments, although I disagree. When you resort to "you are an idiot," the discussion is over.

It was over the moment you decided to spout stupidity in stubbornness, and rejected the word of God.

 

[eameece]

Funny, I know many who do just that. Seems you are quite biased or deliberately lied there.

Tell me what is stopping you and your ultra liberal friends from helping others? Why do you need the government to do it for you?

The point being, that the government needs to do it, as well as individuals, and conservatives don't want it to either giving people to fish OR teach them to fish. So your original question is irrelevant.

 

[eameece]

That's not what He meant.

Jesus was speaking of that fact that this was part of God's plan and that God was allowing it to happen.

So you can interpret what Jesus meant, but others can't?

I say, He meant what he said.

Then point me to a single dead criminal that will commit another crime...

The point being, committing murder, does not justify a murder in turn, especially by the entity supposed to uphold laws against murder. Sure, if I murder someone, (s)he will not do what I don't like again. Barring reincarnation, etc.

Also, God disagrees with you:

And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.
-Deuteronomy 13:10-11

"That's not what it means."

And yet Jesus never said the government should take that approach, did He?

No, but governments are made up of people, and he said people should take that approach. Jesus didn't discuss politics. You want us to return to the kind of governments we had 2000 years ago, that didn't do that stuff. In modern times, we realize that the government needs to "take that approach." Except for authoritarian reactionaries such as yourself, who disagree.

So when it reads, "...so saith the Lord your God," it doesn't really mean that?

Those are words on paper; what does the Lord tell you in YOUR heart?

It was over the moment you decided to spout stupidity in stubbornness, and rejected the word of God.

What I said was that your religion is authoritarian, and that its priority is to punish people. If you take the Bible as authority, rather than as inspired wisdom, that is part of what I mean. God is not a superman upstairs giving orders. It is up to us to be inspired by the divine truth as best we can, and act on it. The Bible can only point the way.

 

[Lighthouse]

So you can interpret what Jesus meant, but others can't?

Idiot.

I call you that because your immediate reaction was to accuse me of such an attitude.

I say, He meant what he said.

So do I. The difference here being that I read the entire context.

The point being, committing murder, does not justify a murder in turn, especially by the entity supposed to uphold laws against murder. Sure, if I murder someone, (s)he will not do what I don't like again. Barring reincarnation, etc.

God commanded the Israelites not to commit murder, then turned around and commanded that anyone who committed murder should be executed, thus legal execution of those guilty of murder is not murder. Are you so much of a moron that you think any killing of a person is murder? You probably think killing animals for food is murder too, don't you?

"That's not what it means."

How would you know?

At least I was able to provide an argument, by the way.

No, but governments are made up of people, and he said people should take that approach. Jesus didn't discuss politics. You want us to return to the kind of governments we had 2000 years ago, that didn't do that stuff. In modern times, we realize that the government needs to "take that approach." Except for authoritarian reactionaries such as yourself, who disagree.

Governments are entities, and Jesus said that individuals should take that approach on a personal level.

Jesus didn't discuss politics? He never said anything about, oh, I don't know, taxes, for instance?:think:

And what kind of moron are you to think I want to return to the kind of government Rome was 2000 years ago?

Those are words on paper; what does the Lord tell you in YOUR heart?

Idiot.

What I said was that your religion is authoritarian, and that its priority is to punish people. If you take the Bible as authority, rather than as inspired wisdom, that is part of what I mean. God is not a superman upstairs giving orders. It is up to us to be inspired by the divine truth as best we can, and act on it. The Bible can only point the way.

Moron.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The point being, that the government needs to do it, as well as individuals, and conservatives don't want it to either giving people to fish OR teach them to fish. So your original question is irrelevant.

You didnt answer my question, and please tell me how asking you and your liberal friends to help the causes you like, is irrelevant to helping the poor.

Whats wrong with you working hard and doing it?

 

[eameece]

So do I. The difference here being that I read the entire context.

He said what he said. why would he have said it so clearly if he did not mean it? EVERYTHING he said was in the context of his affairs and his passion. This does not stop fundamentalists from quoting it and ignoring the context.

God commanded the Israelites not to commit murder, then turned around and commanded that anyone who committed murder should be executed, thus legal execution of those guilty of murder is not murder. Are you so much of a moron that you think any killing of a person is murder? You probably think killing animals for food is murder too, don't you?

The difference between us is that you think you are an Israelite, and I think I'm an American from a blue state. Yes, killing is murder. what else would it be? It may not be first degree. I didn't say anything about animals, but I do think killing animals for sport is inhumane.

How would you know?

How would you know Jesus didn't mean what he said to Pilate?

Governments are entities, and Jesus said that individuals should take that approach on a personal level.

And so they should take the same approach when acting in government.

Jesus didn't discuss politics? He never said anything about, oh, I don't know, taxes, for instance?:think:

Yes, he said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Today, that means paying your taxes to support people in need, and supporting that.

And what kind of moron are you to think I want to return to the kind of government Rome was 2000 years ago?

Because you insist that because Jesus didn't advocate the kind of social government which blue states and Europe have today, that he would not advocate it if he were alive today. Wrong; he would. Jesus lived under Rome. There were no movements or laws for the government to help the needy in Rome. You want to return to the kind of government Jesus would have known. And you support the very same kind of behavior by authorities in Palestine that existed then.

God speaks to you in your Heart. What the Bible said 2000 years ago may be inspired, but it has to be interpreted by people with minds living today. A real Christian is interested in compassion, not using religion to punish people who disobey authority.

 

[eameece]

You didnt answer my question, and please tell me how asking you and your liberal friends to help the causes you like, is irrelevant to helping the poor.

Whats wrong with you working hard and doing it?

I do help the causes I like. So your point is?

 

[Angel4Truth]

I do help the causes I like. So your point is?

That i should be able to do the same, without you picking my pocket to support yours.

 

[Lighthouse]

He said what he said. why would he have said it so clearly if he did not mean it? EVERYTHING he said was in the context of his affairs and his passion. This does not stop fundamentalists from quoting it and ignoring the context.

*rubs bridge of nose*

Forget it. You're hopeless.

The difference between us is that you think you are an Israelite, and I think I'm an American from a blue state. Yes, killing is murder. what else would it be? It may not be first degree. I didn't say anything about animals, but I do think killing animals for sport is inhumane.

You don't know squat.

I'm perfectly clear on the fact that I'm not an Israelite. Circumcision and the Sabbath, for instance, are not part of the agreement with God which I am under; yet those were perpetual covenants God had with the Israelites.

God said that it profaned Him when those who deserved to die were not killed. How is that murder?

How would you know Jesus didn't mean what he said to Pilate?

He meant exactly what He said to Pilate. I never said otherwise. You need to learn to read.

And so they should take the same approach when acting in government.

Non sequitur.

Government is an agency for doing that which the individual cannot, and should not, do. They are supposed to be God's minister to execute wrath. Have you never read Romans 13? Do you think Paul was contradicting Jesus?

Yes, he said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Today, that means paying your taxes to support people in need, and supporting that.

Actually that is not at all what He meant.

Helping those in need is something we should do on an individual, personal level; it is not the job of the government.

Because you insist that because Jesus didn't advocate the kind of social government which blue states and Europe have today, that he would not advocate it if he were alive today. Wrong; he would. Jesus lived under Rome. There were no movements or laws for the government to help the needy in Rome. You want to return to the kind of government Jesus would have known. And you support the very same kind of behavior by authorities in Palestine that existed then.

You're a moron.

Jesus never said it was the government's job to help the needy; He said it was our job, as individuals.

God speaks to you in your Heart. What the Bible said 2000 years ago may be inspired, but it has to be interpreted by people with minds living today. A real Christian is interested in compassion, not using religion to punish people who disobey authority.

Religion has nothing to do with my advocacy to punish the guilty for their crimes.

You're one of the stupidest people on TOL.

 

[eameece]

That i should be able to do the same, without you picking my pocket to support yours.

Sorry, we need to pick your pocket. Government investments to support our advancement help all of us develop a brighter future, and always have. A social/economic safety net protects all of us. It is an insurance program for a rainy day, of which we've had plenty lately; have you noticed? If you lose your job just because some bankers were allowed to gamble away everyone's money, should you be thrown on the street and told that it was your fault? Stop calling it pocket-picking. Taxes are not theft. They are your responsibility.

 

[eameece]

I'm perfectly clear on the fact that I'm not an Israelite. Circumcision and the Sabbath, for instance, are not part of the agreement with God which I am under; yet those were perpetual covenants God had with the Israelites.

God said that it profaned Him when those who deserved to die were not killed. How is that murder?

Killing people is murder, always.

You think you are an Israelite because you think what "God told the Israelites" applies to us today.

He meant exactly what He said to Pilate. I never said otherwise. You need to learn to read.

I've read it a hundred times and quoted it for you. It is quite clear that he said that government leaders get their power from above.

Government is an agency for doing that which the individual cannot, and should not, do. They are supposed to be God's minister to execute wrath. Have you never read Romans 13? Do you think Paul was contradicting Jesus?

God has no "wrath:" again, that's your authoritarian ancient out-of-date human "God," which you uphold in order to punish people you disagree with; not the compassionate one I know. If Paul said something, it was Paul who said it, not Jesus. If you want to know what Jesus said, then read what Jesus said.

Actually that is not at all what He meant.

Helping those in need is something we should do on an individual, personal level; it is not the job of the government.

It's exactly what he meant, because that's partly what your taxes go for today. Though not nearly enough goes for that, instead of for useless wars, in my opinion. It IS the job of the government. You said it yourself; "Government is an agency for doing that which the individual cannot, and should not, do." Except for the "should not" part, that's exactly what paying for helping the needy is. Individuals can in no way cover it all; what's more, a few individuals should not have to bear the entire burden; those who are blessed with the success their society has given them, should do more. You DID NOT "build that."

Notice also the FACT that those states and countries where the government helps the needy are the healthiest, wealthiest, best educated, best on any scale of well-being you can imagine. I posted that here already. Our blue way works; your red way does not. It's as simple as that; you guys just refuse to pay attention. You guys are comatose, often blinded by your so-called religion and your unwillingness to help others.

Jesus never said it was the government's job to help the needy;

He said no such thing. In those days government programs to help the needy didn't exist, so he didn't talk about them. Government is individuals acting together; ethics that apply to individuals, apply to governments.

Religion has nothing to do with my advocacy to punish the guilty for their crimes.

YOUR religion does exactly that. That is its only purpose. You use it to hit people over the head and tell them they are sinners if they don't follow it. I use it to learn to be wiser and more helpful.

You're one of the stupidest people on TOL.

Thank you. Coming from such as you and Nick, that is quite a compliment. Thank you thank you thank you!!! :first:

 

[Lighthouse]

Killing people is murder, always.

You're an idiot.

You think you are an Israelite because you think what "God told the Israelites" applies to us today.

There are things God has commanded that stand for all, through all time; and there are things which applied only to Israel. I know the difference, clearly you do not.

I've read it a hundred times and quoted it for you. It is quite clear that he said that government leaders get their power from above.

You're a moron.

God has no "wrath:" again, that's your authoritarian ancient out-of-date human "God," which you uphold in order to punish people you disagree with; not the compassionate one I know. If Paul said something, it was Paul who said it, not Jesus. If you want to know what Jesus said, then read what Jesus said.

Pinhead.

It's exactly what he meant, because that's partly what your taxes go for today. Though not nearly enough goes for that, instead of for useless wars, in my opinion. It IS the job of the government. You said it yourself; "Government is an agency for doing that which the individual cannot, and should not, do." Except for the "should not" part, that's exactly what paying for helping the needy is. Individuals can in no way cover it all; what's more, a few individuals should not have to bear the entire burden; those who are blessed with the success their society has given them, should do more. You DID NOT "build that."

Nitwit.

Notice also the FACT that those states and countries where the government helps the needy are the healthiest, wealthiest, best educated, best on any scale of well-being you can imagine. I posted that here already. Our blue way works; your red way does not. It's as simple as that; you guys just refuse to pay attention. You guys are comatose, often blinded by your so-called religion and your unwillingness to help others.

Dipstick.

He said no such thing. In those days government programs to help the needy didn't exist, so he didn't talk about them. Government is individuals acting together; ethics that apply to individuals, apply to governments.

:dunce:

YOUR religion does exactly that. That is its only purpose. You use it to hit people over the head and tell them they are sinners if they don't follow it. I use it to learn to be wiser and more helpful.

You are a fool who merely thinks himself wise.

Thank you. Coming from such as you and Nick, that is quite a compliment. Thank you thank you thank you!!! :first:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Sorry, we need to pick your pocket. Government investments to support our advancement help all of us develop a brighter future, and always have. A social/economic safety net protects all of us. It is an insurance program for a rainy day, of which we've had plenty lately; have you noticed? If you lose your job just because some bankers were allowed to gamble away everyone's money, should you be thrown on the street and told that it was your fault? Stop calling it pocket-picking. Taxes are not theft. They are your responsibility.

No, you have no right to force me to support what you think is most important, i should be able to determine that for myself since its my $. I should have the same right to support the causes i like and think are important as you do.