toldailytopic: Is it wrong to spank your children when they misbehave?

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Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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Unless you've made up your own secret definition, I know precisely what "anarchy" means.
"testing boundaries/developing independence"

That's what you called anarchy. That is not anarchy. Anarchy is a complete disrespect for authority. And the public schools are full of children who have no respect for the faculty, let alone most other authority figures.

Those whose parents discipline them properly have respect for their parents, certainly, but that doesn't mean they respect their teachers, principals, deans, etc. And they behave only out of respect for their parents, regardless of the level of respect [or lack thereof] they have for those in authority over them at school.

Also, I never claimed you didn't have children, so to claim my guess was patently wrong based on the fact that you do have children just proves you're an idiot.
 

Cruciform

New member
That's what you called anarchy.
Yes, that's what I call "anarchy" among school children.

And the public schools are full of children who have no respect for the faculty, let alone most other authority figures.
Go ahead and cite your documentary source for this assertion. Proof, please.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Traditio

BANNED
Banned
The need to rely on punishment betrays a lack of positive ethical wisdom on the part of the parents. My parents had no right to punish me, imho, via spankings or whatever else. They were guilty of the very things for which I myself was punished and more. My parents were gluttonous potty-mouths, impassioned brutes, etc.

If I wasn't a particularly good child, then I didn't have much better an example. :nono:

You want to spank your children? Fine. But be sure to spank yourself first. Don't correct your child if your very lifestyle doesn't provide correction through abundant examples of moral rectitude. Otherwise, you are unworthy to correct your children.
 

Dena

New member
I am not a fan of spanking. Thankfully my husband and I are on the same page with this issue.
 

MaryContrary

New member
Hall of Fame
Would Christ spank a child? No.
I think you're not thinking. I think you've equated spanking with child abuse and that's precisely where you've stopped thinking.

What if spanking isn't necessarily child abuse? What if it's possible to spank a child without being abusive? These verses should at least suggest to you that it's possible.

Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Prov 13:24: He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Why would scripture encourage this otherwise? If it is not possible to spank without being abusive, then these verses all clearly support child abuse.

I think you need to go a step further than the claim that Christ would not spank a child and address whether He would deny these verses. As it stands, your response can only be read as a claim that He would.

I think many of the posts here have illustrated very well how exactly one would go about spanking a child as a means of correction without being abusive. I think you should consider them if you want to address this topic wisely. In all honesty, I see you closing your ears to everyone on the other side of this issue from you and just denying. That can't be wisdom and I would think wisdom something we should seek, don't you?

-----

That said, I think an aspect of this issue too many people miss is the "testing boundaries/developing independence" thing that was almost but not quite addressed earlier. Folk tend to get caught up in the question of whether or not spanking is abusive and lose this particular point.

Children need, desperately, a sense of security. The prime source for this are the boundaries their parents, or whomever is caring for them, lay down around them. They need to know those who are protecting them are willing to protect them from themselves as well. Children are well aware that they aren't adults and that the world around them is designed for adults. Specifically that it's extremely dangerous and harsh for non-adults. They know they rely on the their parents for their very survival.

What they need then, before anything else, even their next meal, is to know that their parents have laid strict boundaries around them. Both to curtail their own behavior and to protect them from the world beyond those boundaries. Most of the troubled behavior by children, the vast majority of it, is merely testing those boundaries to reassure themselves they exist. Or pushing them where they are weak in the hopes of encouraging they be shored up. Or illustrating clearly that the boundaries don't exist (and why they should) so parents will get on the ball, do their job and lay them down.

It is no accident that children with clear, firm boundaries on their behavior "misbehave" far, far less than those with weak boundaries. And forget about those with none at all. For most children it is the lack of boundaries that provokes bad behavior, usually as a desperate cry for those boundaries to be put into place.

There is no firmer, clearer and more reassuring boundary than "cross this line and you will be harshly punished". What makes this unhealthy is for the child not to know where exactly this boundary lies. This is what you see in abusive environments, where punishment lurks in every corner and in areas where one must tread.

When such boundaries are healthy and just, this is very good. When they are not, they are abusive. When you do this in love then, it is loving and good. When not, then not so much.

-----

My husband was always an advocate of corporal punishment and that caused a lot of problems when we first started talking about getting together. Even when I was convinced...I was still not at all comfortable with it. In fact, I'm still not. I resolved early on that I would simply have to have nothing to do with it and steer clear. I couldn't stomach even the idea of it.

Interestingly, since we've been together (just over 3 years now) there have been exactly zero spankings. And the kid's fourteen now. And, when I realize I wasn't exactly aware of when the last spanking was laid down, and asked about that, I found it was well over a year prior to our marrying.

Because it hasn't been necessary. My step-son has remained well aware of the boundaries on his behavior and had no cause to doubt them nor test them. So he hasn't. And, consequently, hasn't required a spanking. Considering his age I'm comfortable estimating he may never receive another.

That should not suggest he doesn't test the boundaries frequently. He does. But he's secure enough that little more than a look or, humorously I think, a grunt from the Big Guy to nip that in the bud. And when he does test those boundaries and receive that acknowledgement that they are still firmly in place, you can see the relief and pleasure it brings him to know that they're there. That's something my step-son needs. A safe, secure place to develop the independence and self-identity he'll need in order to one day go out and lay down his own boundaries in his own house.

This is not child abuse. This is parenting. And I've heard the arguments that there are other methods for laying down and enforcing those boundaries. But in light of this, I don't see how that's anything other that using methods utterly flaccid in comparison simply because one is too weak to utilize the most effective method. That's sacrificing the safety, security and comfort of one's child for one's own comfort. That's not parenting at all and certainly not loving.
 

Beatrice

New member
I think you're not thinking. I think you've equated spanking with child abuse and that's precisely where you've stopped thinking.

What if spanking isn't necessarily child abuse? What if it's possible to spank a child without being abusive? These verses should at least suggest to you that it's possible.

Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Prov 13:24: He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Why would scripture encourage this otherwise? If it is not possible to spank without being abusive, then these verses all clearly support child abuse.

I think you need to go a step further than the claim that Christ would not spank a child and address whether He would deny these verses. As it stands, your response can only be read as a claim that He would.

I think many of the posts here have illustrated very well how exactly one would go about spanking a child as a means of correction without being abusive. I think you should consider them if you want to address this topic wisely. In all honesty, I see you closing your ears to everyone on the other side of this issue from you and just denying. That can't be wisdom and I would think wisdom something we should seek, don't you?

-----

That said, I think an aspect of this issue too many people miss is the "testing boundaries/developing independence" thing that was almost but not quite addressed earlier. Folk tend to get caught up in the question of whether or not spanking is abusive and lose this particular point.

Children need, desperately, a sense of security. The prime source for this are the boundaries their parents, or whomever is caring for them, lay down around them. They need to know those who are protecting them are willing to protect them from themselves as well. Children are well aware that they aren't adults and that the world around them is designed for adults. Specifically that it's extremely dangerous and harsh for non-adults. They know they rely on the their parents for their very survival.

What they need then, before anything else, even their next meal, is to know that their parents have laid strict boundaries around them. Both to curtail their own behavior and to protect them from the world beyond those boundaries. Most of the troubled behavior by children, the vast majority of it, is merely testing those boundaries to reassure themselves they exist. Or pushing them where they are weak in the hopes of encouraging they be shored up. Or illustrating clearly that the boundaries don't exist (and why they should) so parents will get on the ball, do their job and lay them down.

It is no accident that children with clear, firm boundaries on their behavior "misbehave" far, far less than those with weak boundaries. And forget about those with none at all. For most children it is the lack of boundaries that provokes bad behavior, usually as a desperate cry for those boundaries to be put into place.

There is no firmer, clearer and more reassuring boundary than "cross this line and you will be harshly punished". What makes this unhealthy is for the child not to know where exactly this boundary lies. This is what you see in abusive environments, where punishment lurks in every corner and in areas where one must tread.

When such boundaries are healthy and just, this is very good. When they are not, they are abusive. When you do this in love then, it is loving and good. When not, then not so much.

-----

My husband was always an advocate of corporal punishment and that caused a lot of problems when we first started talking about getting together. Even when I was convinced...I was still not at all comfortable with it. In fact, I'm still not. I resolved early on that I would simply have to have nothing to do with it and steer clear. I couldn't stomach even the idea of it.

Interestingly, since we've been together (just over 3 years now) there have been exactly zero spankings. And the kid's fourteen now. And, when I realize I wasn't exactly aware of when the last spanking was laid down, and asked about that, I found it was well over a year prior to our marrying.

Because it hasn't been necessary. My step-son has remained well aware of the boundaries on his behavior and had no cause to doubt them nor test them. So he hasn't. And, consequently, hasn't required a spanking. Considering his age I'm comfortable estimating he may never receive another.

That should not suggest he doesn't test the boundaries frequently. He does. But he's secure enough that little more than a look or, humorously I think, a grunt from the Big Guy to nip that in the bud. And when he does test those boundaries and receive that acknowledgement that they are still firmly in place, you can see the relief and pleasure it brings him to know that they're there. That's something my step-son needs. A safe, secure place to develop the independence and self-identity he'll need in order to one day go out and lay down his own boundaries in his own house.

This is not child abuse. This is parenting. And I've heard the arguments that there are other methods for laying down and enforcing those boundaries. But in light of this, I don't see how that's anything other that using methods utterly flaccid in comparison simply because one is too weak to utilize the most effective method. That's sacrificing the safety, security and comfort of one's child for one's own comfort. That's not parenting at all and certainly not loving.

When I hear (or read) the justification for spanking I feel as if I am in hell.

Spanking is physical abuse of children.

Love does not use physical abuse to teach children. Love uses love to teach children.

Forget the 'spare the rod' quote and look to the heart of the matter. It is inconceivable that anyone who loves (truly) would ever defend spanking.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Yes, that's what I call "anarchy" among school children.
More and more you demonstrate your stupidity.

Go ahead and cite your documentary source for this assertion. Proof, please.
I was there. And I know children who still are. In several different public schools. Respect for the administration and other faculty is non-existent.

The need to rely on punishment betrays a lack of positive ethical wisdom on the part of the parents. My parents had no right to punish me, imho, via spankings or whatever else. They were guilty of the very things for which I myself was punished and more. My parents were gluttonous potty-mouths, impassioned brutes, etc.

If I wasn't a particularly good child, then I didn't have much better an example. :nono:

You want to spank your children? Fine. But be sure to spank yourself first. Don't correct your child if your very lifestyle doesn't provide correction through abundant examples of moral rectitude. Otherwise, you are unworthy to correct your children.
Matthew 7:1-5?

I'll agree with you on that one. With the exception of legal matters. Such as alcohol consumption. In that you discipline your child for breaking the law, even if you drink, because it is not breaking the law if you do it.

When I hear (or read) the justification for spanking I feel as if I am in hell.

Spanking is physical abuse of children.

Love does not use physical abuse to teach children. Love uses love to teach children.

Forget the 'spare the rod' quote and look to the heart of the matter. It is inconceivable that anyone who loves (truly) would ever defend spanking.
Willful ignorance then?
 

Cruciform

New member
More and more you demonstrate your stupidity.
Hey, if you don't actually have a rational response---no, ad hominem barbs don't qualify---just say so, friend. :doh:

I was there. And I know children who still are. In several different public schools. Respect for the administration and other faculty is non-existent.
Yeah, that's what I thought. As usual, you've got nothing. When you come up with an actual substantiated argument, let me know, 'kay? Super. :thumb:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
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