toldailytopic: Is increasing taxes on the wealthy a wise economic plan for this natio

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame

toldailytopic: Is increasing taxes on the wealthy a wise economic plan for this nation?

The reason they want to raise taxes is because they are spending more than they have, and because they've done so for a very long time, however an increase in taxes will lead to an increase in spending [because they're morons] and we won't be any better off.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Price caps lead to companies going out of business and the gap having to be filled by the federal government.
No it doesn't. Or it doesn't have to. Not if the caps are set right. Every other industrialized nation on the planet is using price caps to keep the cost of health care down, because captive markets HAVE to be regulated. And it's working very well for them because they have learned how to set the caps reasonably.
Within our lifetimes, Obama Care will cause the federal government to have to step in and expand medicare/medicaid to fill in the void left by companies getting out of the health care business.
I don't see why. Essentially the insurance companies now have a mandate from the government that we buy what they sell. Without price caps, they have a government backed monopoly - a dream come true for the insurance industry! Why would anyone get out of that business?
Medicare/Medicare already reimburses doctors at a LOSS and the goverment has been threatening to cut the reimbursements by an additional 75% but gets postponed in the budget stop gap bills.
And yet doctors in the U.S. make more money than doctors almost anywhere else on Earth. I think maybe someone is lying to you.
Obamacare has set the stage for the perfect storm... one that I don't think our governement is in the position to absorb right now.
"Obamacare" is a poor solution, but I don't think it's the end of the world. As "Romneycare" it's working OK in Massachusetts. It's not the best solution but it could perhaps turn out to be better than no solution at all.

I just wish we could grow up and implement a real solution, as so many other nations have already managed to do.
 

HisServant

New member
Some are and some aren't... the ones that are making the most money are the once that were lucky enough to pick the correct specialty that isn't has heavily regulated as others.
 

Doormat

New member
The reason they want to raise taxes is because they are spending more than they have ...

You may not believe this because it sounds so fantastical, but because of the way money is created in our system, they have to spend more than they have. If everybody stopped borrowing money, our system would collapse because when the banks create money to lend they only create the principle and not the interest. Simply put, if people including governments stop borrowing there would be no money to pay the interest.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Looks like both sides can agree on common sense. Now it's guaranteed that the government won't do it! :D
Sad, but true. Just imagine the size of the bribe that would come from those bankers if there really was a legislative bill up for vote on eliminating the fed! It would be the biggest bribe in history! And that's just the "carrot". Imagine how big and nasty their "stick" would be!
 

PureX

Well-known member
You may not believe this because it sounds so fantastical, but because of the way money is created in our system, they have to spend more than they have. If everybody stopped borrowing money, our system would collapse because when the banks create money to lend they only create the principle and not the interest. Simply put, if people including governments stop borrowing there would be no money to pay the interest.
The good thing about it, though, is that it's all basically make-believe debt, anyway. We could just simply declare it non-existent, and nothing of consequence would actually happen.

People forget that money is just numbers on paper. It's only a representation of value, and has no actual value of it's own, and it only represents actual value so long as we all agree to it. So there is no national debt except that which we agree to call "debt". If we were to simply say "as of today, there is no more national debt", nothing would happen except some people who think we owe them lots of money wouldn't be able to think so anymore.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Why not take a look at the last time we did it. Clinton raised taxes on the top earners. I remember the guys peddling the "Laffer Curve" predicting the outcome would be a severe recession.

Instead we got the greatest economic expansion since WWII.

So, if reality is important to you, there's your answer.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
That's another good point. Raising taxes isn't an economic plan.
It can be part of an economic plan.

After all... if you are trying to add to the private sector how does taking away from it help?
That's the funny thing, it can and often does help. Why?

The extremely rich are currently earning lots of profits, but they're not spending that money by investing in businesses or starting new ones. They're sticking it in the financial sector and keeping it there, waiting for the economy to improve.

So taxing the rich takes that money that was doing little for the overall economy and assuming you don't just use it to "pay down the debt" but instead turn around and spend it.

You hire lots of people with that money, they then spend the money you gave them through government contracts/jobs and that money goes directly to private business. Private business now has increased demand so they may turn around and hire more people multiplying the effect.

It's simple and logical. Stamping your feet and saying "Government doesn't create jobs" doesn't change the facts of how economies actually work. "Government" isn't a black hole of money. It cycles back out into the private sector. If the money was sitting around anyway, there's likely to at least be no harm and some benefits to taxing the rich and spending it on things like infrastructure for all.
 

Wile E. Coyote

New member
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for November 15th, 2012 08:32 AM


toldailytopic: Is increasing taxes on the wealthy a wise economic plan for this nation?






Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.
There are not enough rich people to feed the govt's spending habits. So guess who is going to get hit with taxes again? That's right...the middle class or the micro small business man like myself with two employees.
 

eameece

New member
Welfare is now called "entitlement" so no one has to feel bad about it anymore.

But yeah, it's expensive.

Entitlement is called "entitlement" because they have paid for it, and so are entitled to it. It is not and has never been welfare.
 

bybee

New member
There are not enough rich people to feed the govt's spending habits. So guess who is going to get hit with taxes again? That's right...the middle class or the micro small business man like myself with two employees.

Yes, if you don't get red taped to death first with regulations!
 

eameece

New member
That's another good point. Raising taxes isn't an economic plan.

After all... if you are trying to add to the private sector how does taking away from it help?

Because the private sector also depends on a well-funded and active public sector. Government spending puts money in peoples pockets. Tax decreases can do so as well. But you need both. Tax decreases alone have a diminishing return, which we are now seeing. And tax decreases on the wealthy have no return to the economy at all.
 

bybee

New member
You do realize that's an absurdly hyperbolic response, I hope. Perhaps once you regain your composure and return to reality, you can craft a more reasonable reply?

You are correct! My temper runs away with me sometimes.
 
The conservative movement has been hijacked by corporate interests. Instead of rewarding work, the movement wants workers to pay for the mega wealthys tax cuts. Actual work is taxed more then betting (investing in WallStreet etc) on other people's work! Rewarding gambling more then work has destroyed our economy. The paid puppets of the corporate elite (Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck etc) whine that any movement towards the economy of the 1950s is Socialism! Eisenhower Socialist? Call me a commie but I like Ike!!
Eisenhower (a true conservative that believed in rugged individualism was against corporate collectivism ) warned about the military industrial complex.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Entitlement is called "entitlement" because they have paid for it, and so are entitled to it. It is not and has never been welfare.
He was speaking of false entitlement, referring to those who think themselves entitled to something for which they have not paid.
 

Newman

New member
Private property is theft, and in any case it is a huge government program. The public sector is productive too, and it benefits the public. The private sector locks up profits in the hands of a few, sanctioned by government laws and policy.

"Private property is theft"? That's like saying "war is peace"!

The public sector is unproductive and only benefits the public by chance (but even in those rare moments, the net gain from government expenditures are negative--this is most apparent when you consider wars waged by the state and the massive diversion of resources away from where they could be used in peaceful, voluntary market production and transaction). Only profit-motivated entrepreneurs respond to the will of consumers.

We don't need just market signals. We need other signals too like evidence on how business behavior hurts the environment, and how wealth concentration creates poverty.

And I think consumers are smart enough and courts of law are sufficient enough to consider and punish any negative environmental impacts. Wealth concentration is a myth.

Supply side economics is a fraud. The left side of the Laffer curve is where a prosperous economy operates.

What would you suppose the government would collect with a 100% marginal tax rate?

Bureaucrats are just people working within the civil service doing work for the public. Government is needed, and bureaucrats are just people carrying out the mandates of the people.

I see a massive scam full of rent-seekers and parasites. What incentive to bureaucrats have to "carry out the mandate of the people"?

Taxes belong to the state, not to you

The same way car parts belong to chop shops.

, and the people voting for taxes are not people taking money from you personally.

Which brings me to the difference in committing a crime and conspiring to commit a crime.

Taxes are a moral and beneficial thing---

I'm not convinced.

or at least they can be if fair

Right, because theft is ok if done in moderation.

,
and if the money is used according to the peoples wishes,

That's a big if. Where's the accountability? Where's the incentive structure? Where are the voluntary transactions?

and if the peoples wishes are correct.

Yikes. There's another debate. Who decides which wishes of the public are "correct"?

"Freedom" is not free enterprise; get over the delusion foisted on you by Reagan.

I'm not a fan. Leave your presuppositions at the door.
 

Newman

New member
I'm sorry Newman, but this post is ridiculous in just about every way possible.

"Taxes are theft".

Anyone past about the age of 5 can understand why taxation is not "theft". ... If they wanted to understand, I mean.

Please tell me what your definition of "theft" is, then, if it's not "taking something that isn't yours".

"Taxes inhibit economic growth".

Taxation inhibits the income of some as it provides an income for others. And in the meantime, it builds roads and bridges and all kinds of physical and social infrastructure that EVERYONE needs to increase their economic condition.

And yet countless other goods and services are provided through markets without the need of an entire rent-seeking bureaucracy.

"Taxes distort markets".

Once we get past our absurd worship of the sacred 'markets' we might begin to recognize that not every commercial endeavor is desirable or even viable.

Successful entrepreneurs earn profits for doing just that: providing something desirable at lower costs than others (viability).

Much of the stuff we produce in this country we don't really need, and if the cost of producing it (after paying taxes, and a decent wage, and for a safe work environment, etc.) is too high, then we probably shouldn't be producing it at all.

Who made you in charge of deciding what people ought to have? And, if the cost of producing something is too high, then that something stops being offered in markets (i.e., the firm stops producing it or goes out of business)!

Because the fact is that the well being of the people involved in its production is more important than most of the junk we produce for the market. Market profits are not gods that must be served at any and all social or human cost.

I never said profits are "gods". They are merely a part of a good incentive structure and provide valuable information for whether or not some product or service is valued by consumers more than what it costs to produce it.

"You still must prove that that money is better spent by a bureaucrat".

As opposed to whom?

How about the victim of said robbery?

We live in a representative democracy. That means we elect people to represent us regarding decisions as to who pays taxes, how much they pay, and what the money is spent on.

Explain to me how we can delegate rights that we don't have in the first place. I can't take money out of your wallet, but I can elect somebody to do it for me?

If we don't like their decisions, we can always elect someone else. And given that most people re-elect the same people they elected the last time, we must assume that they are OK with the decisions their representatives have been making.

Either that or we've all been suckered into a very large scam.

If you are assuming that people should keep the tax money and decide for themselves how to spend it, well, that's patently absurd. We are all far too selfish and short sighted to ever spend our own money on things that we need as a collective society, and this has been proven true since the dawn of humankind.

People cooperate in markets via voluntary transactions just fine.

"You are telling people, "You do not have the right to earn/have/save/spend your own money because I can vote for people that know how to spend your money better than you."

Grown ups understand that they live in a society of human beings, to which their own well-being is integrally connected.

Agreed. Which is why setting up a massive burglary system is probably a bad idea. It brings out the worst of society and brings us all down to their level.

Grown ups understand that when their tax dollars are spent on roads that they will never or rarely ever actually travel on, that it's still a positive use of the money because the mobility those roads provide for others, helps everyone in the end.

Then why must these funds be forcibly taken?

This is why grown ups band together and form governments and endow those governments with the power to collect taxes and spend that money on things that a selfish individual would never pay for, but that society as a whole needs and wants to survive and thrive.

You do realize the same could be said for organized crime, right?

Grown ups recognize their own flaws, and so understand why this must be done.

If a child were made to pay taxes, he would likely cry and whine about how his money is being "stolen" from him because he has no sense of his responsibilities as members of any larger group of people. All he thinks about is himself. And what he wants. And what he thinks belongs only to him.

Like I said, then why must these taxes be forcibly taken?

But as we grow up we must learn that we are not each the little kings of our own little universes. We are in fact just one member within a whole group of people like ourselves who's lives and well-being are all tied to each other. And that the decisions we make will effect others, just as the decisions other's make will effect us. Learning to be an adult means learning to think about the welfare of the whole group, as well as our own.

I think the welfare of the whole group is maximized when folks come together and peaceably trade goods, services, and monies for the mutual benefit of both parties involved. When this propagates, economies grow.

Sadly, it's a lesson that has not been taught very well, lately, in the United States. There are a lot of spoiled children running around in adult bodies, behaving like they're little baby kings of their own little baby universes, owing nothing to anyone, and whining and crying like 5 year olds because someone else has taken away one of "their" toys.

Sharing and caring is good. Stealing is bad.
 

PureX

Well-known member
He was speaking of false entitlement, referring to those who think themselves entitled to something for which they have not paid.
That's a disingenuous way of looking at it.

Insurance works pretty much the same way public aid programs work. Everyone pays in a little, so that there is money there to cover those who may need it. Not everyone needs it, however. Yet they pay into it because they want to know it's here if they do need it. Some people need a lot of help before they've paid very much in. But their covered by the money that others pay in and don't need.

Yet you wouldn't consider people who buy insurance foolish, or call them freeloaders when they make a claim, would you? So why do you consider people who pay into and/or use public aid programs when they need help, freeloaders?
 
Top