toldailytopic: Infant baptism: what do you think of it?

[Sherman]

It is uncomfortable and frightening for the baby. I've seen too many videos of the baby squalling his head off through the rite. It is as pointless as a ponytail band on a bald head.

 

[Ted L Glines]

Hippolytus is an ailment of the elderly.

Hey, don't knock baptism; it gives the cleric something to do, adds an extra naked baby to the parents' boring family-photo book, as well as giving the parents another day to celebrate, and, yep, yet another bath for the baby. And it might connect the baby to God.

Talk about multi-tasking :drum:

 

[Nick M]

You can not baptise any infant. One must be compelled, Paul's words.

 

[annabenedetti]

Hey, don't knock baptism; it gives the cleric something to do, adds an extra naked baby to the parents' boring family-photo book, as well as giving the parents another day to celebrate, and, yep, yet another bath for the baby. And it might connect the baby to God.

Actually, in the Catholic Church, the baby remains clothed, and the water is poured over the forehead. And yes, it connects the baby to God in a very perfect way.

 

[annabenedetti]

I am

Not quite, if you do baby dedications.

 

[sky.]

I think it is an act of obedience. So it doesn't do anything for the child.

Acts 22:16

16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’


I think just as we call on the Lord to save us that we should also "arise and be baptized" I think it is obedience to our conscience.

 

[annabenedetti]

I think it is an act of obedience. So it doesn't do anything for the child.

Acts 22:16

16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’


I think just as we call on the Lord to save us that we should also "arise and be baptized" I think it is obedience to our conscience.

But what if the act of obedience you make for yourself, you can make for the child, just as the Jews circumcised their babies at eight days old? That's what the early Christians did (baptism), it's clearly laid out in the quote I put up at the top of the thread, and there are others like it. What we do is speak for the child who cannot speak for himself. Jesus said unless we are baptized in water and the Spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. This is what we want to assure for our children: eternal life.

I understand this is a difference concept than most people have here; they look at baptism, if they do it at all, as a believer's baptism. We see it as a salvific act in itself, not an affirmation of faith.

Added: Sacraments are an outward sign of an inward grace, so the water poured on the the body indicates the grace effected in the soul.

 

[sky.]

But what if the act of obedience you make for yourself, you can make for the child, just as the Jews circumcised their babies at eight days old? That's what the early Christians did (baptism), it's clearly laid out in the quote I put up at the top of the thread, and there are others like it. What we do is speak for the child who cannot speak for himself. Jesus said unless we are baptized in water and the Spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. This is what we want to assure for our children: eternal life.

I understand this is a difference concept than most people have here; they look at baptism, if they do it at all, as a believer's baptism. We see it as a salvific act in itself, not an affirmation of faith.

The difference to me is between an "ordinance" and a "sacrament".
A sacrament says that by the act of something that you impart some form of grace. It is taken as an "inward" change.

An ordinance is an outward act. I don't believe baptism saves anyone. I believe that churches should offer the ordinance of baptism and it means to "identify" with a group a person or a message. It is not necessary for salvation but is an act of obedience.

 

[annabenedetti]

The difference to me is between an "ordinance" and a "sacrament".
A sacrament says that by the act of something that you impart some form of grace. It is taken as an "inward" change.

I think what you meant was that God imparts the grace. We don't.

An ordinance is an outward act. I don't believe baptism saves anyone. I believe that churches should offer the ordinance of baptism and it means to "identify" with a group a person or a message. It is not necessary for salvation but is an act of obedience.

So of course that brings us back to where we started. The Catholic Church sees baptism as necessary, even for children. It is clearly a historical practice, there can be no doubt about it because we have the writings which describe it in some detail. The Council of Carthage even argued about whether it should be done before or after the age of eight days old.

 

[sky.]

I think what you meant was that God imparts the grace. We don't.

So of course that brings us back to where we started. The Catholic Church sees baptism as necessary, even for children. It is clearly a historical practice, there can be no doubt about it because we have the writings which describe it in some detail. The Council of Carthage even argued about whether it should be done before or after the age of eight days old.

So the Catholics teach that baptism saves?

 

[Lon]

I do not support infant baptism.

Are there any infants being baptized in the bible?

Act 16:33 At that hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized right away

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified because of the wife, and the unbelieving wife because of her husband. Otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Mat 18:3 and said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn around and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!

Mat 19:13 Then little children were brought to him for him to lay his hands on them and pray. But the disciples scolded those who brought them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Mat 19:15 And he placed his hands on them and went on his way.

At one time I took a hard stand against it, thinking: "Believe, then baptized" is the biblical pattern but having looked over the above verses when reading scripture, I've softened. I still think the previous model seems correct but am no longer contentious with disagreement.

 

[sky.]

Not quite, if you do baby dedications.

We don't consider baby dedication anything other than the parents choice to decide to dedicate the baby. It is not tied to salvation of the child. Your Catholic denomination calls Catholic baby baptism something that it isn't proven to be in the Bible. You go above and beyond the Bible we do not.
Traditions don't make doctrines.

 

[BabyChristian]

21. At cockcrow prayer shall be made over the water. 1
The stream shall flow through the baptismal tank or 2
pour into it from above when there is no scarcity of
water; but if there is a scarcity, whether constant or1
sudden, then use whatever water you can find.
They shall remove their clothing. And first baptize
the little ones; if they can speak for themselves, they
shall do so; if not, their parents or other relatives shall
speak for them.

Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition --A.D. 215

But anna, that's not in the Bible. Don't you think the Bible is complete?

Hippolytus of Rome (170 – 235) was the most important 3rd-century theologian in the Christian Church in Rome,[2] where he was probably born.[3] Photios I of Constantinople describes him in his Bibliotheca (cod. 121) as a disciple of Irenaeus, who was said to be a disciple of Polycarp, and from the context of this passage it is supposed that he suggested that Hippolytus himself so styled himself. However, this assertion is doubtful.[2] He came into conflict with the popes of his time and seems to have headed a schismatic group as a rival bishop of Rome.[2] For that reason he is sometimes considered the first Antipope. He opposed the Roman bishops who softened the penitential system to accommodate the large number of new pagan converts.[2] However, he was very probably reconciled to the Church when he died[2] as a martyr. He is the person usually understood to be meant by Saint Hippolytus.

I don't want to offend but shall we keep adding to the Bible as the Mormons do?

 

[BabyChristian]

At one time I took a hard stand against it, thinking: "Believe, then baptized" is the biblical pattern but having looked over the above verses when reading scripture, I've softened. I still think the previous model seems correct but am no longer contentious with disagreement.

Act 16:33 At that hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized right away

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified because of the wife, and the unbelieving wife because of her husband. Otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Mat 18:3 and said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn around and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!

Mat 19:13 Then little children were brought to him for him to lay his hands on them and pray. But the disciples scolded those who brought them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Mat 19:15 And he placed his hands on them and went on his way.

What you quote is not Baptism.

I can't see how it can hurt to do as the RCC does, we had our grandchildren dedicated but that's the parents making a decision to raise their kids in a Christian home, it has nothing to do with the decision that baby will make later on in life.

I know babies are saved from the minute they're born without baptism, though they're born with a sinful nature, they have yet to sin.

 

[touched]

it can be usefull if done like in salem in the 1800's just to make sure there are no evil spirits residing there

 

[BabyChristian]

it can be usefull if done like in salem in the 1800's just to make sure there are no evil spirits residing there

I hope that's a joke. There's been many a thing done in the name of Christianity that was/is wrong. It's still wrong to kill women because they thought they were witches and I think the vast majority of Christians and certainly non-Christians would agree.

We're human after all and the misogyny was rampant for a long time.

 

[Lighthouse]

Even if I believed it was necessary for salvation I would still believe in an age of accountability; one would have to be able to make a decision and know what they were doing. Infant baptism makes absolutely no sense to me, whatsoever.

Twice in Acts, once in 1 Corinthians, it is said that entire households were baptized. Babies were certainly baptized in the early Church, there is a historical record of it.

Are you seriously so ignorant of history and ancient cultures that you think children were counted among "entire households" in instances such as these.

 

[some other dude]

Are you seriously so ignorant of history and ancient cultures that you think children were counted among "entire households" in instances such as these.

Do you have anything from scripture that would indicate that they wouldn't?

 

[Lighthouse]

Do you have anything from scripture that would indicate that they wouldn't?

I don't actually need it. Baptism means submersion. Who is going to submerse an infant in water?

 

[sky.]

Are you seriously so ignorant of history and ancient cultures that you think children were counted among "entire households" in instances such as these.

Do you have anything from scripture that would indicate that they wouldn't?

lol...it isn't found in Scripture, get it?