toldailytopic: For those unsaved. If it turns out you were wrong and you face God in

Status
Not open for further replies.

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Say what?
What part was difficult for you?

Ah, I get it. The only evidence is what the Christian holy book says.
Then no, you don't get it. I didn't say the only support for the historical being of Jesus was found in the Bible, but began by noting your bias/agenda at the outset in your error of description without context, an error you continue here to no real effect. The Bible wasn't a discovered book, chair. And you know that as well as I do, making your declaration on that point all the more revelatory.

To a Christian, who believes in Christian holy book, this make perfect sense.
Rather, it makes sense to anyone who understands the Bible is a compilation of writings by different men over time. It's as though I gathered different reports by witnesses to an accident and stapled the whole together. Now you scoff at the collection and say, "What have you other than that book to prove the accident happened?"

:rolleyes:

Now, bear with me a minute, and try real hard to think what this means to a non-Christian.
When you pen something that is remotely challenging for me I'll let you know to slow down. Until then, just take breaks and pat yourself directly on the back between posts. No need for a middle man.

Why in the world would I, or any other non-Christian, accept your holy book as factual?
In what respect? As historical narrative? Because it is written in the time by those experiencing the events and rewritten over time to preserve it; because it is internally consistent in the sense you'd look for in witnessing had you any experience with it; because it doesn't exist in a vacuum, but is supported by other historically verifiable facts, including the writings of early church fathers.

Do you accept the Koran, or Book of Mormon, or the ancient holy texts of the Hindus?
As what? That is, I don't wonder after whether or not Islam's prophet existed, or Smith, or the writers of the Upanishads. And, like Lewis, I find a great deal of reflected truth in them. If you've read Lewis on the true myth of Christianity you should have a good grasp of what I mean. If you don't, I'd suggest it.

If pointing to the "claims and growth of the religion in the relatively uncrowded, backwater region where it began " is any kind of evidence, then we all better convert to Islam ASAP, since it beats Christianity hands down in this regard.
You're conflating the issue of historical truth with the question of the larger truth. I wouldn't offer the above to settle the latter. That remains a matter between man and God and will never find an objective methodology, though there is an offer on the table regarding experience and proof in the only manner possible and satisfactory for any individual. And men are free to approach and consider that or not.

I will ignore your "fringe cry" but- there is no real argument there at all.
Self evidently untrue and beneath you, chair. :e4e:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
If the soul of the unbeliever is eternal, then no God is not just in letting that soul feel torment forever. Why would he be?

Hell was created for Satan/demons, not man. If man refuses God's love, they will share this destiny. The spirit-soul will not be destroyed by God and was created to live forever, with Him. In love, God does not force people to love Him or spend eternity with Him. Those who curse Him will be separated forever. The regret of a life wasted is torment, not frying over hot coals. The person will not fulfill their destiny and will be separated from God. The exact nature of 'torment' is not revealed, but being reduced to nothing while still existing will not compare to sharing life with the One who died for us.

There is no reason to go to hell. If you trust Christ, you will not have to worry about it. Your focus should then be warning others that there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

God will silence our mouths and we will know that He was loving, holy, just, merciful, gracious, kind, wise, etc. You don't see it now because you don't know and love Him. You are at enmity with God and impugn His character and ways rather than see your own wretched nakedness in light of His perfect character and Law.

Who are you to shake your puny fist at God, the one who died an ignominious death so that we may live?

The just judge in a court is not swayed as the seriel killer goes off to his just sentence. Most people rejoice at this since their family is now safe from the killer. You would probably favor the killer as a victim and brow beat the judge for doing his job to protect society.:dunce:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Only the Holy Spirit can draw, convict, convince. We need to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in us (defend and proclaim truth/gospel).

I Cor. 1:18; Rom. 1:16

There comes a point where we are throwing pearls before swine. Jesus did not continue to badger people, but let the rich young ruler walk away unconverted (did not chase him and compromise the message, but was grieved to see him miss the boat).

The sun/Son softens wax and hardens clay. Further light rejected will lead to further condemation. God will not be mocked and we reap what we sow.

Let us pray for those who are blind and taken captive 2 Tim. 2:24-26
 

Dena

New member
We will all stand before Him in His blazing glory/majesty and every knee will bow and tongue confess that He is YHWH, to the glory of the Father. Those who love Him will remain with Him forever, while those who do not long for His coming will be separated from His awesome beauty forever (Rev. 1; Rev. 20; Philippians 2:5-11).

Perhaps today He will return; perhaps today, we will breath our last for a variety of reasons (Heb. 9:27).

Don't play games with God and your soul (denial is a game).

If God didn't want me to burn for eternity he'd see to it I didn't.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
If God didn't want me to burn for eternity he'd see to it I didn't.

The cross is His part, but you must receive the free gift (Rom. 6:23; Rom. 5:8).

Calvinism/determinism is not true. God will not coerce/cause salvation because it is a reciprocal love relationship, not a mechanistic thing foisted on you.

God has provided the way out. You must say yes vs no (Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16; I Jn. 5:11-13).

Jesus, Paul, etc. called people to repentant faith persuasively, as do we.

What is your excuse for not saying yes vs no (even a child can do that)?

Would you like to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior on His terms? This is not fire insurance, but ceasing rebellion and trusting Him alone for eternal life. It will mean ceasing to have false gods/idols and worshipping Him alone as the true God.
 

voltaire

BANNED
Banned
Godrulz made a good point. Just how intense is the torture? Is it merely regret after being revealed the truth about all things, including the true nature of God and the reason for all that he has done. Would God be unjustified in allowing that kind of eternal "torture"?
 

Dena

New member
What is your excuse for not saying yes vs no (even a child can do that)?

Accepting a human sacrifice for the wrong I do seems quite unethical to me.

Would you like to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior on His terms? This is not fire insurance, but ceasing rebellion and trusting Him alone for eternal life. It will mean ceasing to have false gods/idols and worshipping Him alone as the true God.

Uh...in what way am I worshiping false gods?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Are you sorta Jewish? Good, but there is further revelation from YHWH. Heb. 1:1-3

Jesus is the Messiah and He is also YHWH. When you see this, you will come to know the Father (Jn. 14:6). If you accept the principles of animal sacrifices in Judaism, then the reality should not be a problem vs shadows/types. How Jewish are you? Hebrews and Romans will spell out the gospel for you.

Before Christ, money, family, sex, religion, etc. can be a god/idol.

I don't know you from Eve, but God sees your heart.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
The Bible is historical narrative.
:rotfl:

No . . . it's not.

Some of the authors walked with Jesus.
:rotfl:

No . . . they didn't.

It also records that 100s saw the risen Christ.
:rotfl:

No . . . it asserts as much though.

You can reject the Bible, but at least be fair with what it says.
:rotfl:

I'm MORE than fair . . . it's pretty much ALL lies.

The godless unbelief and denial of revelation around here is galling.
:rotfl:
 

alwight

New member
Who are you to shake your puny fist at God, the one who died an ignominious death so that we may live?
This is really quite pathetic. Is it just the terrible fear of a more powerful being which inspires your adherence and cowering obedience to your particular supposed god?
Perhaps I should pity you for living such a life of unnecessary fear and dread.
Are you unaware that there are countless completely innocent humans that are forced to often lead their whole lives ignominiously and pitifully never mind deaths, no thanks to your God apparently?

Re the OP, if I am nevertheless wrong I'd ask your God why did he allow such heartless and cruel things to happen to innocent people? Before I was dragged off that is, to fry forever which I surely would do given your apparently heartless tyrannical despotic god.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
There are many different semantics in vicarious redemption. It often depends on the Christian that you are talking to. But yes, vicarious redemption is an absolutely ludicrous concept.

Yea I use to try and match wills with people that didn't believe, but it never worked, you either make slaves or enemies. Either God saved the whole rotten barrel or its a lie, 1Tim 2:4-6, Time will tell the truth of it all one way or another.



Grace, Zeke.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
I think Granite has quite a bit to offer. He seems to be one of the more reasonable people here. You could learn a lot from him.

SD's nothing more than a time waster. She's a petty spiteful little backbiter and a pathological liar.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
The Bible is historical narrative. Some of the authors walked with Jesus. It also records that 100s saw the risen Christ. You can reject the Bible, but at least be fair with what it says.

The godless unbelief and denial of revelation around here is galling.

That you actually think it's historical reliable isn't galling so much as it is ignorant.
 

chair

Well-known member
...

In what respect? As historical narrative? Because it is written in the time by those experiencing the events
But it wasn't.

The gospels are a historical narrative, in the sense that they lay out a history of events over a short period of time. But are they accurate? Were they written at the time the events happened? Claims of that nature require some evidence.

Even historical accounts recorded by people who were part of the events have to be treated with a grain of salt. When Josephus talks about this role in the war, you have to be aware of his viewpoint, and his need to justify his own actions.

Your Bible is a religious text, not a simple historical one. Even the events that are claimed to have happened don't have to be interpreted in the usual Christian way.

Not every Jewish miracle-worker was the Messiah- or God. Not every empty grave is a sign of "defeating death". The words of wisdom that Jesus said were not unusual in that time or place (though most Christians are unaware of this).
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Even secular people admit the archaeological, historical evidence for the Bible is growing constantly. It is unreasonable to accept many other works, yet just assume that the Bible is inaccurate (bias).

The problem of evil cannot be laid at God's feet. I don't serve Him out of scared fear, but awe, love, reverence since He is the most beautiful, awesome, valuable being in the universe. Don't confuse Him with Satan, demons, Hitler, Stalin, etc. He opposes these things, yet the atheists blame God for them?

:baby::bang:
 

nicholsmom

New member
That you actually think it's historical reliable isn't galling so much as it is ignorant.

But it wasn't.

The gospels are a historical narrative, in the sense that they lay out a history of events over a short period of time. But are they accurate? Were they written at the time the events happened? Claims of that nature require some evidence.

Even historical accounts recorded by people who were part of the events have to be treated with a grain of salt. When Josephus talks about this role in the war, you have to be aware of his viewpoint, and his need to justify his own actions.

Your Bible is a religious text, not a simple historical one. Even the events that are claimed to have happened don't have to be interpreted in the usual Christian way.

Not every Jewish miracle-worker was the Messiah- or God. Not every empty grave is a sign of "defeating death". The words of wisdom that Jesus said were not unusual in that time or place (though most Christians are unaware of this).

I am slowly working my way through a very thorough book on this subject, called "The Historical Reliability of The Gospels" By Craig Blomberg. Blomberg has done a great lot of homework to write this book, looking into all the various theories and the evidence for each as well as the history and culture of the time. I think that unless a person has really made an honest and thorough study of the reliability of the Gospels, he should do no more than claim doubt.

If one has done a thorough study, then arguments that come from that study should be given rather than casting aspersions, that way we can all learn a bit from the various arguments and the responses to those arguments.

Just seems like a more useful and interesting way to pass the time than "This is history" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "You're an ignorant sucker" :plain:
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Even secular people admit the archaeological, historical evidence for the Bible is growing constantly. It is unreasonable to accept many other works, yet just assume that the Bible is inaccurate (bias).

The problem of evil cannot be laid at God's feet. I don't serve Him out of scared fear, but awe, love, reverence since He is the most beautiful, awesome, valuable being in the universe. Don't confuse Him with Satan, demons, Hitler, Stalin, etc. He opposes these things, yet the atheists blame God for them?

:baby::bang:

Not sure where you got the Hitler/Satan bit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top