Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see chrys saying they saved you.
But it's good to see you admitting they are the fruit of a good tree.
So you would agree if that "tree" had no fruit, or works, it might not be one that is spared, yes?
toldailytopic: Do good works play a part in your salvation?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see chrys saying they saved you.
But it's good to see you admitting they are the fruit of a good tree.
So you would agree if that "tree" had no fruit, or works, it might not be one that is spared, yes?
THEY should be. Most atheists/agnostics/and the combinations thereof, are a bit more upstanding and sincere than those I know in the Church. Not all, there are exceptions both ways.
nobody says that
why did Paul tell the Churches to continue doing every good work?
Why did Jesus send the sheep that did the work to heaven, and the goats that didn't do the works didn't go?
you are half right in your claims. Works don't save you. But you stop the convo there, and deny that you are saved to do works, and expected to perform them.
That's the problem I have with my protestant brothers on this topic, they are so sincerely "concerned" about the RCC church, they scream out WORKS DON'T SAVE like a parrot, and say it so much they forget you are saved for that very Purpose to work.
King Arthur, Knighted Sir Galahad, formerly known as Galahad. Part of the KNIGHTING was the gift of armor and a sword. Now, my question would be, why did ARTHUR arm and protect GALAHAD if he didn't expect it to serve a purpose for him?
As the legends of Arthur are just a humanified (points for new word) Messiah retelling story, I think the analogy is dead on.
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
This is Christ's second coming, at which time He will take His rightful throne.....the throne of David.
This is not the 'white throne judgement', which takes place a thousand years later.
This is the judgement of the nations:
Joe 3:1 "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land,
There are at least seven different 'judgements' in the Bible. This is one of them.
Look around. The actions which indict those at this judgement are in process now, but sadly will increase concerning Jesus' brethren.
The 'sheep' don't go to heaven. They enter the Messianic Davidic Kingdom on earth. The LORD removes 'all that offends, from His Kingdom' at this time.
Ephesians 2:10
1 Timothy 2:9-10
1 Timothy 5:9-10
1 Timothy 6:18
James 2:14
James 2:17
These are SOME examples of vss that must be reconciled with whatever you think WORKS represents in our faith. If you say NO WORKS, then you need to answer for the above. Your solution/apology need be a remedy that includes both the
'not works of the law' vss and these that encourage works.
:devil:
Even more sadly, it appears that every person who claims he is Xian, also claims everything they say is the right way, and leave no room for error. :|
So, either every person is wrong, or only one person is right. (guess this leaves e.o. rcc anglican out...)
Put a room of 100 protestants ask the question How are you saved, you would get 110 different answers. :devil:
Even more sadly, it appears that every person who claims he is Xian, also claims everything they say is the right way, and leave no room for error. :|
So, either every person is wrong, or only one person is right. (guess this leaves e.o. rcc anglican out...)
Put a room of 100 protestants ask the question How are you saved, you would get 110 different answers. :devil:
can you have one without the other?
I'm with you.
Not because I want to be.
Just because you are right.
I miss being able to argue with my Catholic buddies. But around here, I'm too busy defending the Bible being erroneously thrown you you guys' faces to get around to arguing with you. :idea:
Claiming salvation with no works is a path FROM nowhere.
nobody says that they do
That's not very LDS is it?
zippy2006
New member
Hi Steko :wave:
I don't really have the time to address your whole post, so a few things:
You seem to include works in the idea of faith. As I noted previously, one is not saved as a meritorious result of their faith, but they are not saved without faith, and we are urged to have faith. Similarly, one is not saved as a meritorious result of their works, but they are not saved without works, and we are urged to do good works, to actively love others, by every author of the NT.
I say you need faith and works, you say you only need faith, but that faith must produce works. Tomato tomahto. :idunno:
From Abraham to Christ to Paul man is urged to act, to work, to do. Paul sees a danger in thinking that the doing is in itself capable of producing salvation, not in seeing an obligation in running the race and finishing strong. James corrects that common misreading of Paul, even going so far to say that works play a part in justification:
James does not say that we are justified before men by our works, but not before God. Declaring the Lordship of Jesus and believing meant very different things to the Apostles than they unfortunately do to us. It is opposite to declaring the Lordship of Caesar and rendering to him his due.
Furthermore and most importantly: what is in our hearts and what is seen on the outside should not be at odds. We are not to be whitened sepulchers.
The faith-works thing is admittedly something of a mystery. But to say that faith is all that is required and works are secondary and unnecessary is not Biblical. Faith supports works, but works also support faith. Sometimes we find Christ much more in carrying a cross than in professing our faith. :e4e: Was Christ's work on Calvary separate from His faith?
Ok, if only the Grace of God via the Spirit enables a person to freely believe, how does anyone move from unbeliever to believer. Why would anyone be evangelical OR discuss God with someone outside the Church at all?
Why does the Holy Spirit come only as a maturity factor in our lives, not Before salvation? Well amend that, ...does the H.S. indwell us only as a maturity factor....
So, according to those "scriptures", the Spirit indwells after someone claims to have believed.
In Acts they received the Spirit after they believed, and most often after baptism as well.
How did the SPIRIT save them, if he hadn't yet been received by them?
K:
Zip. I am in general agreement with your post.
Perhaps the difference(not sure) is that I believe that the scriptures demonstrate that we are 'secure' in Christ at the point of trust in what He did, apart from any meritorious works of our own. When the Spirit indwells us at the point of 'faith in Him', the Spirit begins to work in and through us righteous works, to His glory. I believe that at the point of 'true faith' that 'we are 'sealed' unto the day of redemption(of our bodies)'.
Perhaps the difference(not sure) is that I believe that the scriptures demonstrate that we are 'secure' in Christ at the point of trust in what He did, apart from any meritorious works of our own. When the Spirit indwells us at the point of 'faith in Him', the Spirit begins to work in and through us righteous works, to His glory. I believe that at the point of 'true faith' that 'we are 'sealed' unto the day of redemption(of our bodies)'.
zippy2006
New member
Yes I think that we probably differ slightly there. To use your own words, I would say that we are capable of falling away from work-producing faith.
But this is also semantics to an extent, because you would say that those who fall away simply didn't have "true faith." By "true faith" then you basically mean "faith which does not fall away."
But Hebrews 6:4-12 comes to mind in favor of my own position, as it evidences a rather substantial faith that is capable of falling away.
:e4e:
Can you have one without the other? And can you have salvation without either?
As with your entire last paragraph, the sort of response you'd chide others (by which I mean me) for if taken, say, with the heathen. :think:
As I inferred with my present illustration, we differ.
While I don't normally comb through the past posts of anyone to supply a context for an answer to my responses to a post on a point, reading that didn't actually change anything in my present illustration or response.
:e4e:
