toldailytopic: Do electric cars help, or hurt, the environment?

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 19th, 2012 10:00 AM

toldailytopic: Do electric cars help, or hurt, the environment?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

 

[Alate_One]

Help, possibly since electricity can be generated from a variety of sources including wind, solar, wave etc.

However, in many parts of the country, charging your car from the grid is not much better than using gasoline, and in some cases it is worse. This is because a lot of our electricity is still generated by burning coal, one of the worst fuels for the environment and for human health. This is in terms of CO2 emitted as well as directly toxic pollutants, lives lost and areas destroyed in it's extraction.

Electric cars are usually still somewhat better than your average gasoline powered car under many conditions simply due to the improved efficiency, however hybrid and plugin hybrids are probably still superior for most people's driving habits.

For those that are interested in the actual science of evaluating the tradeoffs here is a PNAS article from last year on the subject.

Here's an interactive map reflecting the value of electric cars by region

If electricity across the country begins to be generated through cleaner technologies the environmental value of pure electric cars will increase, Until then it's very much an "it depends" answer.

 

[The Barbarian]

It isn't easy to be green. But it's a start. And it might just keep us from the kind of lung-rotting pollution China is now desperately trying to reverse.

 

[chatmaggot]

I think they can be helpful if people using them accordingly. For example, I recall reading comments on an article about electric cars and the car was criticized for it only being a one seat-er.

The point of the article was that this car was just a commuter vehicle and an errand vehicle especially for those who live in the city.

To me the criticism for the vehicle would be akin to arguing that a snowmobile would be useless on the lake!

Instead of having two gas vehicles, this article noted, have one gas and use the electric for day to day driving and errands if two gas vehicles are not needed.

My favorite electric vehicle is the NmG (no more gas) by Myer's Motors. I just like the way they look.

The NmG Vehicle

NmG

 

[TomO]

Help, possibly since electricity can be generated from a variety of sources including wind, solar, wave etc.

However, in many parts of the country, charging your car from the grid is not much better than using gasoline, and in some cases it is worse. This is because a lot of our electricity is still generated by burning coal, one of the worst fuels for the environment and for human health. This is in terms of CO2 emitted as well as directly toxic pollutants, lives lost and areas destroyed in it's extraction.

Electric cars are usually still somewhat better than your average gasoline powered car under many conditions simply due to the improved efficiency, however hybrid and plugin hybrids are probably still superior for most people's driving habits.

For those that are interested in the actual science of evaluating the tradeoffs here is a PNAS article from last year on the subject.

Here's an interactive map reflecting the value of electric cars by region

If electricity across the country begins to be generated through cleaner technologies the environmental value of pure electric cars will increase, Until then it's very much an "it depends" answer.

Ditto lain:













:listen: Betcha never thought you'd see that; huh, Alate?

 

[annabenedetti]

I love this line, because I really imagine this is what the Prius driver is thinking. I may be wrong, then again, maybe not:

It’s unspoken, but every driver gliding around town behind the wheel of a Prius is thinking the same thing: “I’m saving the planet. What are you doing, you dirty-fossil-fuel burner?”

http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/...olluting-than-gas-guzzlers-at-least-in-china/



Anyway, I've heard that manufacturing the battery for electric cars is not at all green. I couldn't find anything in a quick search.

 

[The Barbarian]

In a sense, he is saving the planet. Electric technology needs to get better, and that's what's happening now. It won't really have an effect until cleaner electric generation becomes more common.

 

[annabenedetti]

Are you a Prius driver?


What's going to provide super-abundant cleaner electricity?

 

[Tambora]

toldailytopic: Do electric cars help, or hurt, the environment?

At the present time, no.

As AlateOne has already touched on, most of our electricity is generated using oil or coal product.
So, if everyone had a an electric car, you would need much more oil and coal product to produce the additional electricity needed.

Water power would not be sufficient, as it would always depend on rainfall and water flow.
Many areas have been through severe drought times.

Wind power would always depend on, well, the wind being readily available.

Same with solar power. Too many cloudy days will hinder production.

Not to mention that there would have to be a large number of dump sites accross the country created to discard all the gas operated vehicles, engines, and generators that now use oil and coal product.
Including all cars, semi-trucks, tractors, trains, airplanes, etc.

The only way to afford the mass effort to convert all the facilities (city power, vehicle manufactures, etc.) would be to raise taxes, or to raise the price of the cars, trucks, tractors, trains, airplanes, etc., and the electric power to run them.

 

[oatmeal]

You mean cars whose batteries are charged by electricity provided by whatever the utilities power plants are run off of?

Coal?

Nuclear?

..

 

[Delmar]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 19th, 2012 10:00 AM

toldailytopic: Do electric cars help, or hurt, the environment?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

It's a bit early to say what the impact of disposing of all those extra big batteries will be, but I'm guessing not good!

 

[kmoney]

Help, possibly since electricity can be generated from a variety of sources including wind, solar, wave etc.

However, in many parts of the country, charging your car from the grid is not much better than using gasoline, and in some cases it is worse. This is because a lot of our electricity is still generated by burning coal, one of the worst fuels for the environment and for human health. This is in terms of CO2 emitted as well as directly toxic pollutants, lives lost and areas destroyed in it's extraction.

Electric cars are usually still somewhat better than your average gasoline powered car under many conditions simply due to the improved efficiency, however hybrid and plugin hybrids are probably still superior for most people's driving habits.

For those that are interested in the actual science of evaluating the tradeoffs here is a PNAS article from last year on the subject.

Here's an interactive map reflecting the value of electric cars by region

If electricity across the country begins to be generated through cleaner technologies the environmental value of pure electric cars will increase, Until then it's very much an "it depends" answer.

This sounds about right. :up:

 

[Alate_One]

toldailytopic: Do electric cars help, or hurt, the environment?

At the present time, no.

As AlateOne has already touched on, most of our electricity is generated using oil or coal product.
So, if everyone had a an electric car, you would need much more oil and coal product to produce the additional electricity needed.

It's not necessarily as bad as you're making it out to be.

Water power would not be sufficient, as it would always depend on rainfall and water flow.
Many areas have been through severe drought times.

Not necessarily. In some parts of the world, water power is a large proportion of renewable energy. Especially in Canada where there is so much hydroelectricity, "hydro" is often synonymous with electricity. (It's 62% of their total electric power generated)

So if you were in Canada, an electric vehicle might be a great idea for the environment.

Germany was recently able to meet a third to half of it's energy needs with solar alone.

Since solar powers all living organisms on earth and has plenty left over, we just need to figure out how to capture it.

Wind power would always depend on, well, the wind being readily available.

All renewables suffer from being intermittent but solving that problem requires proper siting for maximum efficiency as well as learning how to store energy.

Not to mention that there would have to be a large number of dump sites accross the country created to discard all the gas operated vehicles, engines, and generators that now use oil and coal product.
Including all cars, semi-trucks, tractors, trains, airplanes, etc.

It's called recycling. Vehicles are mostly metal which is easily recycled and relatively valuable. This is the least of the problems with electric vehicles.

One of the larger ones, mentioned in the paper I linked is the resources required to manufacture large battery banks. There's also the issue of battery recycling and disposal.

 

[Yorzhik]

Right now they are not better for the environment. We know this because they are more expensive than a comparatively equipped gas car. We will know when they are better for the environment when they make sense to buy.

A couple things:

The battery is the only thing standing in the way of a successful electric car. I don't think we will have a good enough battery for at least a few more years (10?). But they are 70% of the way there.

Coal isn't too bad a polluting energy source. They've gotten a great deal cleaner in the last few years to the point where the earth can clean itself faster than the coal plants are making it dirty. So that should no longer be a concern.

 

[The Barbarian]

Battery recycling is a very easy process. All the waste material can be refined and re-used in new batteries. The stuff that makes the batteries toxic if discarded is precisely the stuff that is needed to make new batteries.

 

[Alate_One]

Ditto lain:

:listen: Betcha never thought you'd see that; huh, Alate?

Nope!

But anything is possible. I've been looking into the issue since we have been looking at moving out to the country which would increase our commute times drastically. Checking on Carbon footprint calculators seems to indicate that the impact from food production can be higher than that from transportation (long story short, eat less meat, eat local and organic) unless you're driving quite far every day or flying a lot.


Now where's my rep points . . . .

 

[Tambora]

It's not necessarily as bad as you're making it out to be.

We have already had times when electricity was turned off for about 30 minutes, rotating from neighborhood to neighborhood throughout the city, because the power plant could not keep up with the demand.

There is no way this city could accommodate additional electricity to charge electric cars.
Most families have two cars.

 

[Tambora]

Right now they are not better for the environment. We know this because they are more expensive than a comparatively equipped gas car.

This is another concern.

Most families that I know are barely scraping by to be able to put enough bread on the table for their family to eat.
Older used cars are about all they can afford.

To force these folks to junk their old car and have to buy a new electric car would be devastating, and in fact impossible for them to be able to do.

 

[Sherman]

For the purposes of this discussion, let me play environmentalist for a few minutes. Are Electric cars really non-polluting? Actually electric cars hurt the environment. Here's why. Despite the 'green' image of the electric car, they are less efficient and yes polluting. The electricity has to come from power stations which are polluting in themselves. Most of the world's electricity comes from fuels which produce an exhaust no cleaner than car exhaust, such as coal. I still see, today, mile long coal train shipping coal to these power plants. Electric cars simply transfer their emissions from the tail pipe to the power station. That's not the whole story. There's the heavy battery. There isn't a real efficient nonpolluting recycling system in place for processing all of these Lithium Ion batteries in place as of yet. There isn't much of a market for thier after products when they are recycled.

 

[Nick M]

We don't have the infastructure to support it (by design). Build 150 more nuclear powerplants, and then worry about the electric cars. Liberals know this, which is why they want it now. Because we can't power it. California can't, by their own law.

The nuclear plants will not come into being because then electricity would be cheap and plentiful, and the liberals don't want that. Electric cars could then have more range because you can always charge it overnight, and that is freedom, which they don't want. Are you seeing a trend yet? They want you on a bus that pollutes more in one day than a Honda Civic does in a year. Because it limits freedom. They will drive a Range Rover, they just don't want you doing it.