toldailytopic: Did the Supreme Court make the right call over Obamacare?

[Alate_One]

Yesterday's decision showed that at least two of the justices (Kennedy and Roberts) acted in a non-partisan manner. That was actually refreshing to see.

Explain to me how this works: It was found to be unconstitutional under the commerce clause yet constitutional under the tax clause. But...doesn't something only need to be shown to be unconstitutional according to one thing...for it to be unconstitutional?

No. The question is does the congress have the power to enact the ACA. You need to find support in the constitution for a particular piece of legislation. If it can't be supported by the commerce clause (which 4 of the justices said it could, and I think ridiculous to think it can't), it could be supported by another power in this case the power to tax. Since the mandate, that is the penalty is written as a tax, but just not called one. So long as there's no prohibition against the law (first amendment etc.), supporting the law with an alternative power is fine.

 

[kmoney]

The mandate is enforced by a penalty is in the tax code and it's collected by the internal revenue service. It's a tax in all but name, and it wasn't named one for political purposes.

I understand that. It doesn't feel like a tax though. Are there other taxes that are comparable to this?

 

[Alate_One]

I understand that. It doesn't feel like a tax though. Are there other taxes that are comparable to this?

It's similar to a tax credit, though not written in the exact same way. It achieves the same type of goal. For example, people that buy electric or hybrid vehicles get a tax credit (i.e. don't have to pay as much money on their taxes) than people that don't buy vehicles at all or buy normal vehicles.

Lots of behavior is encouraged and discouraged through the tax code. It's a very normal part of the US government. It's also why our tax code is so complex.

 

[jeffblue101]

I understand that. It doesn't feel like a tax though. Are there other taxes that are comparable to this?

Apparently inactivity in the marketplace can be taxed as well. So its a mandate enforced through taxation.

 

[jeffblue101]

The mandate is enforced by a penalty is in the tax code and it's collected by the internal revenue service. It's a tax in all but name, and it wasn't named one for political purposes.

It seems like the Supreme court created a loophole out of thin air, even though all of the democrats in the white house universally denied that Obamacare is a tax because it wouldn't be able to get enough votes to pass if it was called a tax in the first place.

 

[Tambora]

toldailytopic: Did the Supreme Court make the right call over Obamacare?

No.

 

[Iconoclast]

How do you suppose people will "know" what a procedure will cost? What about variables in any given operation or procedure? What about unexpected complications? What about the fact that insurance companies create a competitive environment already?:bang:

There will be a list of prices it is that simple.
No different that when they work on your car, sometimes they find more wrong than originally thought.
Is the complication caused by the DR, nurse? I work in the medical field and many are but there is no accountability because the insurance pays for it.

They don't create a competitive environment in the ER or DR's office. If your insurance will cover a procedure and the Dr says, "I really don't think we need to do this, but to be on the safe side I ordered it". What happens? It gets done because "Insurance is paying for it". You don't know the cost of it, nor do you care because you "Pre-Paid" for it. Insurance is not a cost control fool, it is what is driving up the cost because it eliminates knowledge of what an exam or procedure costs. So Dr's hospitals charge the max that they can to remove a tick or put in a stitch.


Medicad and medicare are prime examples of this and the main reason medical cost are so high.

 

[This Charming Manc]

So if increased socialisation leads to higher costs, why do Americans pay on average twice was us Brits do for healthcare, miss out a large proportion of your population and still seem to get a, level of service not that much better?

I don't fully understand the system you have got now though it seems that its a bit of a 'pig in a poke', either do socialised medcine or not. This definitely seems like a neither an insurance system or a socialised medicine system, but some concoction in between.

There will be a list of prices it is that simple.
No different that when they work on your car, sometimes they find more wrong than originally thought.
Is the complication caused by the DR, nurse? I work in the medical field and many are but there is no accountability because the insurance pays for it.

They don't create a competitive environment in the ER or DR's office. If your insurance will cover a procedure and the Dr says, "I really don't think we need to do this, but to be on the safe side I ordered it". What happens? It gets done because "Insurance is paying for it". You don't know the cost of it, nor do you care because you "Pre-Paid" for it. Insurance is not a cost control fool, it is what is driving up the cost because it eliminates knowledge of what an exam or procedure costs. So Dr's hospitals charge the max that they can to remove a tick or put in a stitch.


Medicad and medicare are prime examples of this and the main reason medical cost are so high.

 

[keypurr]

Ask not what your country can do for you, rather ask what you can do for your country.
I will pay with a smile, for someone in need will get help.

 

[Stripe]

Only an idiot hands over money in the hope that it will be used for good.

And only a fool does it with a goofy grin on his face.

 

[This Charming Manc]

Pay unto caesar what is caesars .....

That is what Jesus says about tax, not that it is theft like has been claimed by many on here.

Only an idiot hands over money in the hope that it will be used for good.

And only a fool does it with a goofy grin on his face.

 

[Stripe]

Pay unto caesar what is caesars .....That is what Jesus says about tax, not that it is theft like has been claimed by many on here.

Why did you quote me? :AMR:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Why did you quote me? :AMR:

He likes your hat.

 

[bigbang123]

Funny thing is the entire mandate idea was a Republican alternative to "Hillarycare" and Obamacare is essentially identical to Romneycare.

Until the GOP can explain those facts away, I'm not interested in anything they have to say on the subject.

 

[Iconoclast]

Until the GOP can explain those facts away, I'm not interested in anything they have to say on the subject.

GOP = Godless On Purpose...

Thus they come up with even more Godless ideas than the dems.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Only an idiot hands over money in the hope that it will be used for good.

And only a fool does it with a goofy grin on his face.

Like this?

 

[Iconoclast]

So if increased socialisation leads to higher costs, why do Americans pay on average twice was us Brits do for healthcare, miss out a large proportion of your population and still seem to get a, level of service not that much better?

I don't fully understand the system you have got now though it seems that its a bit of a 'pig in a poke', either do socialised medcine or not. This definitely seems like a neither an insurance system or a socialised medicine system, but some concoction in between.

What you don't understand is that the price of every procedure and test is set by the medicare reimbursement rate. Thus the private insurance and hospitals set the prices that they asked based on that. This is how the government screwed the system back in the 60's.

All medical procedures not covered by insurance or medicare have gone down in price due to competition and up in quality.

 

[Lighthouse]

toldailytopic: Did the Supreme Court make the right call over Obamacare?

No.

It would be kinda ironic if Romney repeals in the USA the very same thing he passed in Massachusetts.

:chuckle:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Giving people services that are paid for by stealing from others doesn't give dignity to the poor. Are you really that stupid? It only allows them to continue to be poor in comfort.

Insurance is just pre paying for services because people are afraid. The ONLY way to REFORM healthcare is to make insurance for healthcare ILLEGAL. This then eliminates the pre pay and so people will know the cost of the services. Those with the cheapest and best services for the money will survive and those with expensive bad care will fail. Cost will be controlled by the consumer of health care the only way to do it. All other ways fail because they do not deal with the root cause of the high cost of healthcare.

*
You don't mind if they steal taxes to pay for bombs or to fund evolution science or space research.

 

[This Charming Manc]

I think there are a number of factors that are at work here;

We are not comparing like with like as Americas much more lawsuit rich environment means people do many procedures that maybe wouldn't be done elsewhere.

It maybe the medical insurance is actually much more inefficiently that a fully socialised, but evidence form the rest of Europe which is a more insurance based system than the UK would seem to deny that.

Maybe the higher costs come from social problems such as obesity which is much higher in the states and what is pushing your healthcare costs up.

But the fact remains that currently pound for pound us Brits are getting better healthcare results even though we have a fully socialised system.

What you don't understand is that the price of every procedure and test is set by the medicare reimbursement rate. Thus the private insurance and hospitals set the prices that they asked based on that. This is how the government screwed the system back in the 60's.

All medical procedures not covered by insurance or medicare have gone down in price due to competition and up in quality.