toldailytopic: Church hierarchy: what is the proper biblical way that a church should

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 6th, 2010 10:22 AM

toldailytopic: Church hierarchy: what is the proper biblical way that a church should be organized?

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[grit]

There's a great little book in Zondervan's Counterpoints series called, Who Runs the Church: 4 Views On Church Government, Steven B. Cowan editor, that's worth a read; and another one approved from our Baptist friends at B&H Academic publishing called, Perspectives on Church Government: Five Views of Church Polity. I'm a Presby, soooooo, I mostly side with that side(s) of the issue, but I have a whole bucket of Presby stories about how lots of Presby groups have either failed to be Presbyterian by church polity or made quite a mess of enacting Presbyterian church polity. Still, come to think of it, I've got buckets of stories about the same for each of the church polities. Maybe we just need more buckets? The House seems to presently have drips in every room.

 

[chrysostom]

one flock
one shepherd

 

[Trumpetfolker]

The organization of church government was shown clearly in Acts 20 and 1 Timothy.

Ac 20:17 ¶ And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

These were the guys Timothy had picked according to the instruction of Paul. The Greek word interpreted 'bishop' is, also, translated 'overseer'.

Eph 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Thus, we know that a city's church has a plurality of bishops.
The bishops were not, as individuals, autonomous, the bishop council was once they had been commended to God and the Word of God's grace.

Ac 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
...
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Thus, they were supposed to watch each other. Specifically, they were supposed to make sure that none of their number started taking advantage of the sheep by becoming manually unproductive.

Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
...
Ac 2033 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

It takes only three years to prepare men to become bishops. Since they are productive in order to gain the giver's blessing, the have resources which must be distributed to the weak. That job is given to a person who is drafted by the congregation and overseen by overseers/bishops. The draftee becomes a deacon who, if proven to be faithful in small things, gets promoted.

1 Tm 3:8 ¶ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

2Co 8:22 And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.

When deacons are proven, they may be promoted into offices of deacons. The Greek word transliterated 'deacon' is, also, interpreted 'minister. A deaconry is a ministry.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

It is natural that elders/bishops/overseers could be drafted for the deaconry. But, Peter says that they should not wait to be drafted.

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

 

[Krsto]

one flock
one shepherd

Yes, of course. That's why all churches should submit to that one shepherd and recognize what that one flock was meant to be. Then we wouldn't have all these denominations, including yours.

 

[Krsto]

There's a great little book in Zondervan's Counterpoints series called, Who Runs the Church: 4 Views On Church Government, Steven B. Cowan editor, that's worth a read; and another one approved from our Baptist friends at B&H Academic publishing called, Perspectives on Church Government: Five Views of Church Polity. I'm a Presby, soooooo, I mostly side with that side(s) of the issue, but I have a whole bucket of Presby stories about how lots of Presby groups have either failed to be Presbyterian by church polity or made quite a mess of enacting Presbyterian church polity. Still, come to think of it, I've got buckets of stories about the same for each of the church polities. Maybe we just need more buckets? The House seems to presently have drips in every room.

I agree with the presb. form of government grit but I was wondering if there are any Presb. churches that have that form. It seems they all have a board of elders who do little of the ministry because they have someone or several they pay to do it. In the early church there was no paid local ministry so the elders were indeed the ministers of the church.

 

[Aner]

Thus, we know that a city's church has a plurality of bishops.
The bishops were not, as individuals, autonomous, the bishop council was once they had been commended to God and the Word of God's grace.

Trumpet

Thanks for your keen insight - you are right on with this one. There is NO Monarchial "teaching" pastor as is routinely seen in the daughters of the Vatican - the Evangelical churches.

I remember when I stumbled on this truth approx 20+ years ago despite attending a strong monarchial led church - and my mind was blown about just how totally deceived the entire church world has been by the pre-medieval traditions that have long destroyed any semblance of Christ on earth.

In any event - great job.

Best,
Aner

 

[Krsto]

Trumpet

Thanks for your keen insight - you are right on with this one. There is NO Monarchial "teaching" pastor as is routinely seen in the daughters of the Vatican - the Evangelical churches.

I remember when I stumbled on this truth approx 20+ years ago despite attending a strong monarchial led church - and my mind was blown about just how totally deceived the entire church world has been by the pre-medieval traditions that have long destroyed any semblance of Christ on earth.

In any event - great job.

Best,
Aner

Ditto for me. I had this roommate in bible college run by a strong monarchial pastor who had the annoying habit of asking questions like "Where do you see THAT in the bible?" and asked me "Where do you see pastors in the NT?" The answer to that question has led me to write a book on the subject which I am still working on.

 

[grit]

I agree with the presb. form of government grit but I was wondering if there are any Presb. churches that have that form. It seems they all have a board of elders who do little of the ministry because they have someone or several they pay to do it. In the early church there was no paid local ministry so the elders were indeed the ministers of the church.

I think most of them that have not become congregational at least attempt to follow the form, and even many of the congregational ones maintain a recognition of teaching elders as small-group leaders or Church-School teachers.

I was in a Presbyterian church once that even paid its choir members, and in another which paid to have an organist and choir director who weren't members of our Presbyterian church, but Lutherans at another church on the other side of town; but most regular-sized Presby churches in the conservative realm don't generally pay their elders unless they're in the oddly parallel aspect of 'secular' office in the church, like full-time employment in running a church's Christian Education/School, day-care center, church finances, print shop, or the like.

As church groups trend to look around at other church groups (not unlike when Israel demanded a king similar to their neighbours), and even meritorious oecumenism blurs a lot of the old traditional distinctive of religious groups, there's certainly a tendency in church polity toward secularism, where even episcopal polity is rendered more democratic and congregational. It's perhaps not that odd that as the religious consciousness becomes more communicative world-wide, more universally familiar with various practices and traditions, there's both a growing appreciation of what's good in each and a loss of whatever goodness distinguished them from one another. We pick up the worst habits from other polities while expecting the best of what we find admirable in a polity we've not generally practiced.

For example, I'm a founding member of the Presbyterian Church in America, which, while in its founding at once championed a continuance of historical, conservative theology, also found reason to become more congregational to the end that a local congregation would keep "its" church property in separating from the mother-church which it considered to have abandoned the historical teachings and practices of the church.

I find even strongly episcopal church groups, like Roman Catholics, have become much more broadly run by committee or church council, and so representatively democratic in function; and not simply in polity, but often in theology as well. At least that's one of the things I garnered from Vatican II and modern trends across Protestantism and even the ancient way of Eastern Orthodoxy and the Syrian and Coptic congregations. In many ways there's more of a homogenous melding across Christianity, even of those groups who claim sole ownership of the true way. I wouldn't really call it unity, but perhaps more of a humanistic expectation of 'inalienable rights', the failure of which may also foster the rise of limited autocratic cults.

 

[chrysostom]

there was a time when the pastor could run the parish all by himself
but
now with all the committees he must have one or two more priests to help him

 

[Cruciform]

toldailytopic: Church hierarchy: what is the proper biblical way that a church should be organized?

In the same basic structure as the Apostolic Church:

THE CHURCH IS HIERARCHICAL

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses the word "ecclesia" only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 - Paul refers to both the elders or priests ("presbyteroi") and the bishops ("episkopoi") of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ's Church has bishops ("episkopoi") who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ's Church also has elders or priests ("presbyteroi") who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ's Church also has deacons ("diakonoi"). Thus, Jesus Christ's Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood (1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1); (2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and (3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6). The New Testament priesthood also has three offices: (1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1); (2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and (3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

[http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html]​

Gauidium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Aner]

I had this roommate in bible college run by a strong monarchial pastor who had the annoying habit of asking questions like "Where do you see THAT in the bible?" and asked me "Where do you see pastors in the NT?"

I hate roommates like that - who actually care about the things of God. I would rather just get my diapers changed by the Vatican....(they certainly wouldn't touch me inappropriately...).


BTW - to substantiate that there was no centralized institution one needs only to read through Rev 2, 3 to see that each of these churches was quite independent - with only ONE level of hierarchy above them - the Lord Jesus Christ....

 

[Cruciform]

...I would rather just get my diapers changed by the Vatican...

Instead, however, you have them changed by whatever particular pseudo-christian sectarian tradition you happen to prefer in its place. Brilliant. :doh:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[the valiant]

there is only one boss, thats Y'shua/Yahweh.

the whole western take on having to have a hierarchy is rediculous, it seems that everyone has to have a position in the church for a a job or a significant standing, y'shua made it clear in his words he gave us all authority to do things in his name, not the pastor or head of the church, he meant everyone who believes.

why do we wait for a date and rely on the pastor to do baptism?
why do we have to have deacons to do smaller jobs? a church is a church we are all equal, we shouldnt have a system like in the military that waits till y'shua comes back and we are all judged on what good we have done

 

[Cruciform]

...the whole western take on having to have a hierarchy is rediculous...

Someone apparently should have informed the New Testament writers of this supposed fact (see Post #11 above).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Krsto]

In the same basic structure as the Apostolic Church:

THE CHURCH IS HIERARCHICAL

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses the word "ecclesia" only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 - Paul refers to both the elders or priests ("presbyteroi") and the bishops ("episkopoi") of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ's Church has bishops ("episkopoi") who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ's Church also has elders or priests ("presbyteroi") who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ's Church also has deacons ("diakonoi"). Thus, Jesus Christ's Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood (1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1); (2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and (3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6). The New Testament priesthood also has three offices: (1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1); (2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and (3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

[http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html]​

Gauidium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I read these scriptures and the notes that follow and all I can say is you gotta a whole lotta non sequitur goin' on here cowboy, and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing.

 

[Krsto]

Instead, however, you have them changed by whatever particular pseudo-christian sectarian tradition you happen to prefer in its place. Brilliant. :doh:

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

You missed the analogy. The Catholic Church (among others) does not teach its people how to digest strong food but prefers to spoon feed its baby Christians, if indeed they are even Christians, who never seem to grow up. Of course you won't be able to recognize that because these things are spiritually discerned and that's just not a part of your system of things.

 

[Cruciform]

I read these scriptures and the notes that follow and all I can say is you gotta a whole lotta non sequitur goin' on here cowboy, and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing.

It no doubt appears that way to you, given that you fail to read the Scriptures through the lens of the Church's ancient teaching Tradition, as was intended by God. Instead, you try to interpret the sacred texts in separation from the very Church which produced them in the first place (that is, by "sola scriptura"). Thus, it's inevitable that your perception of Scripture's genuine meaning will often be obscured and distorted (the tens-of-thousands of competing non-Catholic sects is evidence enough of this). However, when read according to the beliefs and practices of the early Church, these are the conclusions and interpretations at which one invariably arrives. God bless.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

bye

 

[Cruciform]

You missed the analogy. The Catholic Church (among others) does not teach its people how to digest strong food but prefers to spoon feed its baby Christians, if indeed they are even Christians, who never seem to grow up. Of course you won't be able to recognize that because these things are spiritually discerned and that's just not a part of your system of things.

I got the attempted analogy just fine. Unfortunately, your entire description of supposed Catholic teaching and discipleship is one gigantic straw man fallacy, and resembles the actual situation not one little bit. You're merely lazily stereotyping here, which says more about you than it possibly could about the Catholic faith.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+