Cracked
New member
Fine... but isn't that Calvinism?
Many hear the gospel, weigh it in their minds, and reject it.
toldailytopic: Can a saved person lose their salvation?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Fine... but isn't that Calvinism?
Many hear the gospel, weigh it in their minds, and reject it.
Why didn't you read what I said before you responded to it?
And aren't saved, and don't receive that faith. So?
Cracked
New member
So you agree with Jedidiah? You have freewill until you believe in the gospel. At that point, you receive faith. Once that happens, you lose your capacity to give up on your belief/Christianity. Do you lose all freewill at this time, or only part of it? If only part, which part?
However, I am assuming you would state that everyone is invited? Although, they then have the freewill to choose faith or not. So all are invited, though they have freewill to chose to accept. Once they do accept, they are stuck, however.
Quick question--does God know who is going to accept or not?
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Sadly, this is true of Kmo. He is not in the body by his own testimony.
No, we are talking about moving from death to life. An event.
John 5:24
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
That is right, I am prooftexting the red letters instead of Paul. When it applies to me.
Okay, why this insistence on characterizing faith as inimical to free will?
If you're trying to shore up your insistence that I'm a Calvinist, then let's go ahead and jump back to the beginning when God made Man. Look at whether or not He can be said to have predetermined who would and wouldn't be saved by knowing in advance who would and wouldn't accept Him. If that's what you're shooting for here.
Otherwise, taking your question at face value, I'd have to say I dunno. I don't see how God can know what any free willed being would do in any situation with absolute certainty...other than perfectly knowing how everything in the universe works, and being able to make what amounts to a Godly educated guess. :chuckle:
Romans 10:2
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
No sign of Gracie? I hope she hasn't lost her eternal life
:up:
She has never been saved.
genuineoriginal
New member
Matthew 13:18-23 18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. |
Some people claim that only the people that are saved can believe. Other people claim that only the people that believe are saved.
The way side did not believe and was not saved, or he was not saved so he did not believe.
The stony places believed for a while, but are not saved. Maybe he were never saved in the first place, so his belief was in vain? Maybe he never believed in the first place, so he was not saved? No, wait...he believed, and because of that he is saved even if he has no root and cannot continue in the belief? Can that really be true?
The thorns believed and continued to believe, but were unproductive, and are not saved. Maybe he was never saved in the first place, so his belief was in vain? Maybe he never believed in the first place, so he was not saved? No, wait...he believed, and because of that he is saved even if he does nothing? Can that really be true?
The good ground was saved, so he believed, endured, and was productive. Or the good ground believed, so he was saved, he endured, and he was productive.
If that is the case, then why did Jesus claim there were four types instead of two?
Could it be that Jesus was making different claims?
- The way side did not believe, so was not saved.
- The stony places believed, but did not endure, so was not saved.
- The thorns believed and endured, but was unproductive, so was not saved.
- The good ground believed, endured, and was productive, so was the only one of the four that was saved.
John 2:23-25
Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.
John 8:31-34
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.
Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.
John 8:31-34
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.
zippy2006
New member
Why can't you answer a question without the attitude?
Your view seems to imply pure Calvinism. I asked for clarification and got nothing. Maybe you ought to read what you write for once and actually consider the reason why the people who have read it believe it excludes free will.
The question stands, and your view seems Calvinistic. You've consistently implied that our "belief" is purely an act of God, and that "We are not capable of it." How we can effect it via free will and yet be incapable of it is apparently something you've yet to consider.
No, but that doesn't mean that they were really saved to begin with.
Sozo is a fine example.
Sozo is a fine example.
Do you believe that salvation is determined by what someone does rather than what someone believes?
If so, which one of your behaviors disqualifies you?
I don't "believe", I know that once we are truly saved we have to be OBEDIENT to God.
That's why I question your salvation ghost (racist jokes, hanging out with drunks like Billy Bob).
Because I already answered the question, you ignored that and you asked again.Why can't you answer a question without the attitude?
Your view seems to imply pure Calvinism. I asked for clarification and got nothing.
Maybe you should ask the question you actually want an answer to rather than the question I already answered.
You're going to have to explain how free will equates to the power of choosing to be something other than what you are.
I am what I am and who I am. I can't chose to be something or someone else. That limits my free will how? I can't chose to be Barack Obama either. Is that a limitation of my free will?
Your argument boils down to this, correct? That if we believe something and cannot disbelieve, our free will has been denied. Right? So explain how all the things you believe that you cannot or will not disbelieve do not likewise deny you free will.
In fact, just go ahead and jump to the argument that no one has free will at all because we all make the decisions and believe the things we do entirely because that's who we are. We can't do otherwise. That's where you're trying to go in such a roundabout way. So go ahead and go there. :idunno:
Seriously, who exactly are the Calvinists around here? :dizzy:
zippy2006
New member
So positively define free will. :idunno: Calvinists like Lon say the exact same thing you are saying all the time, but this has to do with sin and grace, not President Obama. When you sin, do you do so freely? When you have faith in Christ, do you do so freely?
My definition of free will is essentially this: to have choice; to be able to choose something or not.
I believe that if we are forced to believe something against our will then our free will has been compromised.