toldailytopic: Absolute morality. Is the standard of right and wrong relative to ours

[elohiym]

NO!!!

Rahab was honored for her faith. Hebrews 11:31

:doh:

And her faith was seen in her works, one of which was telling a lie to save the spies. Had she not lied, we wouldn't be reading Hebrews 11:31.

The whole incident hinges on her faith as revealed by her lie. Had she not lied, there would be no evidence of her faith.

 

[nicholsmom]

If a person lies to save an agent of God, it's wrong? :squint:

Good thing you weren't the harlot the spies of Israel were relying on.

Why would an agent of God require evil to save him? Doesn't God equip the called? Doesn't He provide all our need? Isn't He perfectly capable of saving without your telling a lie? How in the world do you think that God would require you to break a commandment in His service??? :kookoo:

 

[nicholsmom]

:doh:

And her faith was seen in her works, one of which was telling a lie to save the spies. Had she not lied, we wouldn't be reading Hebrews 11:31.

The whole incident hinges on her faith as revealed by her lie.

What if she hadn't lied, but was still able to "receive the spies in peace" - would God's purpose have been thwarted? Would Rahab have missed her reward? That she lied is only evidence that she did not yet know God or His ways, not that she did good. She did evil that good would prevail, but it wasn't the evil deed for which she was praised; it was for the good work of "receiving the spies in peace."

 

[WizardofOz]

Why would an agent of God require evil to save him? Doesn't God equip the called? Doesn't He provide all our need? Isn't He perfectly capable of saving without your telling a lie? How in the world do you think that God would require you to break a commandment in His service??? :kookoo:

What's your take on Rahab?

 

[nicholsmom]

What's your take on Rahab?

What if she hadn't lied, but was still able to "receive the spies in peace" - would God's purpose have been thwarted? Would Rahab have missed her reward? That she lied is only evidence that she did not yet know God or His ways, not that she did good. She did evil that good would prevail, but it wasn't the evil deed for which she was praised; it was for the good work of "receiving the spies in peace."

 

[elohiym]

Why would an agent of God require evil to save him?

You are assuming her lie was evil. That's like assuming if I lied to save Jews during the holocaust it would have been evil.

Doesn't God equip the called?

He equipped his spies with a lying harlot.

Doesn't He provide all our need?

Does he do the grocery shopping for you? :idunno:

How in the world do you think that God would require you to break a commandment in His service??? :kookoo:

Wait! Show me this commandment that prohibits lying. We'll take it from there.

 

[csuguy]

Our morality is relative to the absolute morality of God. We should seek to align our own morality with God's. This - however - is a constant process and is subject to our understanding of God's Word at any given point in time. Thus, both our understanding - and our adherence to that understanding - is (or should be) constantly increasing with time.

 

[elohiym]

What if she hadn't lied...

The spies would have been discovered and killed. Rehab would have been eventually killed along with her family and the rest of her people.

That she lied is only evidence that she did not yet know God or His ways...

Abraham lied to save his own skin, and he certainly knew God and his ways.

She did evil that good would prevail, but it wasn't the evil deed for which she was praised...

Nowhere in the scriptures does it state that Rehab did an evil deed. Her lie is not condemned as an evil act. There is no commandment that prohibits what she did. You are simply judging her unjustly.

 

[Nang]

Wait! Show me this commandment that prohibits lying. We'll take it from there.

God cannot lie. Titus 1:2

The devil is the father of lies. John 8:44


What does the First Commandment require? Exodus 20:3

One either worships God who cannot lie, or they worship the father of lies, the devil.

 

[Nang]

Nowhere in the scriptures does it state that Rehab did an evil deed.

Rehab was saved according to her faith; not according to her lying methods.

No one here is judging Rahab, for God spared her His judgment by saving her by His grace (and not according to her works of any kind).

 

[nicholsmom]

The spies would have been discovered and killed. Rehab would have been eventually killed along with her family and the rest of her people.

I am just as certain that all would have gone the same, except that Rehab would not have lied...

Here's why I believe that: Rehab was an ancestor of Christ. God fully intended to save her and her family alive out of that city. He would not have been thwarted in that - He wasn't thwarted even when Rehab lied, He certainly would not have been thwarted by the Truth.

Abraham lied to save his own skin, and he certainly knew God and his ways.

Tea in China? Rehab was a foreigner. That she lied only emphasizes her foreignness - that God would have mercy on her and put her in the direct line of the Christ, though she was not Jewish, is the point.

Abram's lies did not serve him so well. He'd have done better to have trusted in God's promises to him.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it state that Rehab did an evil deed. Her lie is not condemned as an evil act. There is no commandment that prohibits what she did. You are simply judging her unjustly.

Ex 20:16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor." If you want to get nit-picky, you could say that it is okay to give false testimony in favor of your neighbor, but it's all perjury.

Jesus said "I am ... the Truth." Lies are anti-Christ, and therefore evil.

 

[elohiym]

God cannot lie. Titus 1:2

The devil is the father of lies. John 8:44

What does the First Commandment require? Exodus 20:3

One either worships God who cannot lie, or they worship the father of lies, the devil.

In other words, you have no commandment that prohibits lying. YOU are just making up stuff, as usual, stringing together a bunch of verses to make a point that ignores all the scriptures that contradict the point.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

It doesn't get any clearer than that. She was justified by her works that included the act of saving the spies by lying.

But the examples of dishonesty in God's service do not end or begin with Rehab. I've already mentioned Abraham who lied, but is said to have kept God's commandments (Gen 26:5).

Then there are the Egyptian midwives who lied to save the Hebrew babies. You think that was a sin, too? :squint:

Exodus 1:19-20 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

And there are numerous more examples in scripture for you to ignore.

Tell us, Nang, is it absolutely wrong to work on the sabbath? I have an actual unambiguous law to prove it is, if you need to see it. What pray tell do you do on Saturdays? :think:

This is the part where you attempt to justify your sabbath breaking while simultaneously bearing false witness against Abraham, the Egyptian midwives and Rehab, right?

 

[elohiym]

Rehab was saved according to her faith; not according to her lying methods.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 

[nicholsmom]

In other words, you have no commandment that prohibits lying.

She didn't just lie, elo, she gave false testimony. She broke the ninth commandment.

She was interrogated by officers of the law and she gave false testimony.

 

[Nang]

In other words, you have no commandment that prohibits lying. YOU are just making up stuff, as usual, stringing together a bunch of verses to make a point that ignores all the scriptures that contradict the point.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

It doesn't get any clearer than that. She was justified by her works that included the act of saving the spies by lying.

But the examples of dishonesty in God's service do not end or begin with Rehab. I've already mentioned Abraham who lied, but is said to have kept God's commandments (Gen 26:5).

Then there are the Egyptian midwives who lied to save the Hebrew babies. You think that was a sin, too? :squint:

Exodus 1:19-20 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

And there are numerous more examples in scripture for you to ignore.

Tell us, Nang, is it absolutely wrong to work on the sabbath? I have an actual unambiguous law to prove it is, if you need to see it. What pray tell do you do on Saturdays? :think:

This is the part where you attempt to justify your sabbath breaking while simultaneously bearing false witness against Abraham, the Egyptian midwives and Rehab, right?

Eloyhim,

You are exposing yourself, and it is not pretty.

You are again proving to give excuse to the devil and all liars; and revealing you teach legalism rather than orthodox justification by faith alone.

Anyone who wants to live by the law (e.g. observance to seventh-day observance of the Sabbath) will die by that same law under the Covenant of Works; for want of comprehending the promises of the Covenant of Grace of God that promises life to lying sinners via His gift of faith and repentance from dead works . . .alone.

Nang

 

[elohiym]

Ex 20:16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."

That's not a commandment against lying in general. The context is specific and cannot be applied to Rehab's situation by any stretch of the imagination. Try again. I need to see a commandment.

For example...

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There we have a clear, unambiguous commandment. It is absolutely wrong to work on the sabbath, right? YOU don't work ever on the sabbath, right? :think:

 

[elohiym]

She didn't just lie, elo, she gave false testimony. She broke the ninth commandment.

What she did has absolutely nothing to do with the ninth commandment. Nothing. To bear false witness is to falsly accuse someone of a crime they didn't commit, which is evil. It has nothing to do with lying to save the life of God's agents.

She was interrogated by officers of the law and she gave false testimony.

She was interrogated by faithless wicked men who God was intent on annihilating. And her lie was part of the works that evidenced her faith.

 

[Nang]

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab was spiritually justified by faith in God alone, but justified amongst men by siding with God in protecting and preserving the sons of God.

Two kinds of "justification" revealed in the Word of God. Faith alone that justifies the soul, as taught by Paul . . . and evidencial workings of faith that justifies the believer as credible witness before mankind, as taught by James.

 

[elohiym]

You are again proving to give excuse to the devil and all liars; and revealing you teach legalism rather than orthodox justification by faith alone.

So by saying that Abraham, Rehab, and the Egyptian midwives did not sin by lying, I am allegedly giving excuse to the devil and all liars? :squint:

And you get to make up non-existent biblical laws against lying that you apply to Rehab and even yourself today, but you are not a legalist? But I am allegedly a legalist because I actually quote a real law and ask you if you keep it? :squint:

You're a nut job.

Anyone who wants to live by the law (e.g. observance to seventh-day observance of the Sabbath) will die by that same law...

What a flip-flopper you are, Nang. In one breath you argue for Exodus 20:3, in the next you argue against Exodus 20:8. :chuckle:

Please tell us what laws from the following list you think we should not live by:

Thou shalt not lie (not in the Bible)
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt keep the sabbath

:think:

 

[Persephone66]

That's good! You believe in absolute morality. Now.... where do you suppose that standard comes from? (since it can't be from man)

Just because I don't find a certain action to be considered right, does not mean that I believe in an absolute morality.

Our entire reality exists because a righteous God exists and created reality for us, it's very difficult to even ponder or imagine what a reality would look like if it weren't a righteous God who created it.

Actually such a reality would not be much different from our own. We would have one less thing to argue over, one less thing to fight and kill each other over. Not to mention no lunatics that believe in some supernatural to fight with science. I have to say, it sounds much better, wouldn't you agree?

BTW, nice means of dancing around my question. So I'll ask again, simple yes or no please, does your belief in your god keep you from comitting act of rape and murder?

I didn't put any words in your mouth at all. I merely asked you a question. :idunno:

Likewise.