ECT Tithing: Is it Biblical?

[God's Truth]

Jesus' body is the church and IS ISRAEL.

Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,


Israel the country is a type of Jesus.

 

[Right Divider]

Oh, no I don't believe that. I believe the covenant is between Israel and God. We just don't agree on who Israel is.

That's because you're believing another type of myth. Israel is clear in the Bible. Jacob was renamed Israel by God. The nation of Israel are HIS descendants.

The body of Christ is NOT Israel and Israel is NOT the body of Christ.

Your version of "Israel" is pure myth.

 

[Right Divider]

What do you think Jeremiah meant when he said the branches would be broken?

Jeremiah 11:16
The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm he will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken.

How many rabbit trails will you try to get me to follow?

Jeremiah was a prophet of Israel. Not your mythological Israel, but the Biblical one.

Jeremiah 11 is about Israel, the real one, breaking their covenant with God.

No, that's actually perfect logic.

No, it's fallacious logic. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that it's not clear.

Regardless, why don't you enlighten me, since you seem to have it all figured out.

You don't need to get insulting.

As I said, please you give me some specific scripture to support your statement that "God will resume His plans for Israel, after the body of Christ is removed"? And don't give me some vague references to entire books and tell me to study. Spell this out for me. Pretend I know nothing. I've heard many people make this same claim as you but nobody has ever been able to show this in scripture. Are you any different?

Firstly, we know this is true because God made promises that are yet to be fulfilled. God is not a liar, so we know that He is not done with national Israel yet.

Both Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21 are speaking of the new earth on which the New Jerusalem, that is those who are members of the new covenant, will live with God forever. These are the believers. Don't you agree with that?

Secondly, you have a very limited view of those books.

Isa 60:10-16 KJV And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. (12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. (13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.​

The Gentiles shall serve Israel when the kingdom is established on the earth.

This matches Revelation.

Rev 21:24-26 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.​

The throne of David is the throne of the King of Israel which is the throne upon which Jesus sits. Why do you ask?

The throne of David is the throne of the King of Israel in Jerusalem.

The house of Jacob is Israel, the real one and not your make believe one.

 

[God's Truth]

There were types of Jesus all in the Old Testament.

Israel the country was a type of Jesus.

The name Israel is a type too, meaning the one who struggles with God and men and overcomes.

The names of the Prophets were types of Jesus.

The rock in the desert was a type of Jesus, and the bronze snake.

The whole Law was about Jesus; the earthly temple, the observance of special days, the sacrifice of animals, etc, all types of Jesus.

"And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious.'' Isaiah 11:10.

The scriptures about the root are about Jesus. This proves the tree is about Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

More proof that the tree is Jesus' body:

The scriptures about the 'Branch' are about Jesus.

"Behold, the days are coming,'' says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:5-6 and: `Behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, `that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah: `In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 33:14-16

We read throughout many books in the Old Testament about the 'Branch', which proves it is a prophecy about Jesus.

The sacrificial lamb of the Passover is also a prophecy about Christ. A lamb without blemish or spot, was to be chosen as a pure offering, and it’s blood was for a sign of God’s people to save them from destruction.

Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. `So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance. Exodus 12:13-14

In the book of Colossians, the Apostle Paul gives a brief explanation that the festivals and Sabbaths of the Law were no longer the essentials of our religious practice, being “types” which pointed to the spiritual reality to be found in Jesus Christ: Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17
All the Old Testament holy days were about Jesus, who was to come.

Jesus is the Sabbath Rest.

That is something from the creation of the world in Genesis.

The Author of the book of Hebrews goes into greater detail on the aspect of the ritual law under Moses being only a “type” pointing to the more perfect law to be found in Christ Jesus: For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.'' Hebrews 8:4-5 and: For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. Hebrews 10:1.

God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac is about Jesus.

 

[Freedm]

That's because you're believing another type of myth. Israel is clear in the Bible. Jacob was renamed Israel by God. The nation of Israel are HIS descendants.


Your version of "Israel" is pure myth.

Paul disagrees with you.

Romans 9:6
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Galatians 3
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

As you can plainly see, Paul says that not all of Jacob's descendants are Israel. He also says that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Do you not believe that you are a child of Abraham?

 

[Freedm]

How many rabbit trails will you try to get me to follow?

Jeremiah was a prophet of Israel. Not your mythological Israel, but the Biblical one.

Jeremiah 11 is about Israel, the real one, breaking their covenant with God.

So let me get this straight. When Isaiah says the following:

Jeremiah 11:16
The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm he will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken.

You believe that "its branches (plural) will be broken" refers to the breaking of the covenant (singular)? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Freedm]

Firstly, we know this is true because God made promises that are yet to be fulfilled. God is not a liar, so we know that He is not done with national Israel yet.

And those promises were made to Israel, right?

Well, here's an interesting thing. Paul says they were made to Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So either Paul is wrong here, or Paul is drawing a parallel between Christ and Israel. Which do you think it is?

 

[Right Divider]

Paul disagrees with you.

Romans 9:6
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

I've probably explained this a million times here on TOL.

This is NOT an inclusion of gentiles as "Israel"... this is talking about excluding unbelieving Israel from Israel.

Also, the NIV is a horrible "translation", if it can even be called that.

Also, read the WHOLE passage:

Rom 9:6-9 KJV Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.​

Galatians 3
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

Israel is Abraham's GRANDSON.

Abraham was to be the father of MANY nations, not just Israel. Gen 17:4
Abraham was ALSO to the father of A GREAT nation. Gen 12:2

As you can plainly see, Paul says that not all of Jacob's descendants are Israel.

That is incorrect and based on a misreading of scripture.

He also says that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Do you not believe that you are a child of Abraham?

:juggle:

 

[Right Divider]

So let me get this straight. When Isaiah says the following:

Jeremiah 11:16
The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm he will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken.

You believe that "its branches (plural) will be broken" refers to the breaking of the covenant (singular)? Is that what you're saying?

Read the whole Bible instead of proof texting with your singular verses.

Jer 11:9-10 KJV And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. (10) They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.​

​

Note what I ACTUALLY said:

Jeremiah 11 is about Israel, the real one, breaking their covenant with God.

 

[Right Divider]

And those promises were made to Israel, right?

Well, here's an interesting thing. Paul says they were made to Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So either Paul is wrong here, or Paul is drawing a parallel between Christ and Israel. Which do you think it is?

Paul is correct; it is you that is wrong.

Blurring, confusing, proof texting.... that's what you do.

 

[Freedm]

Secondly, you have a very limited view of those books.

Isa 60:10-16 KJV And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. (12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. (13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.​

The Gentiles shall serve Israel when the kingdom is established on the earth.

This matches Revelation.

Rev 21:24-26 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.​

I understand where you're coming from, based on your reading of the King James Version. However, when reading the KJV it's important to understand that it was written in the 1600's and many of those old English words have since changed their meaning, so you simply can't read it with today's meanings in mind. You have to read it with the understanding of a 17th century Englishman. (I encourage you to reference more modern translations and also to use a Lexicon such as can be found at biblehub.com)

Specifically in Isaiah 60, I think it is the word "Gentiles" that's throwing you off.

We tend to think of the "Gentiles" as all those who are not physical descendents of Abraham, but really the word used here simply means "nations" or "the people". In other words, Christians are not necessarily included in this group of Gentiles.

Furthermore, if we look at the preceding verse (the last verse of Chapter 59) we can see that all of Isaiah 60 is in reference to God's covenant with the church, not with unbelieving Israel.

Isaiah 59:20-21
“The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.

21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

There is no reason to think that Isaiah 60 refers to anything other than the promises made to Christ, to be fulfilled on the new earth after resurrection day.

 

[Freedm]

Paul is correct; it is you that is wrong.

Blurring, confusing, proof texting.... that's what you do.

Please explain how you reconcile the two. The promises were made to Abraham and the promises were made to Christ. Do you then not think that since we are in Christ and Christ is in us that those promises extend to us? How do you explain that?

 

[Freedm]

I've probably explained this a million times here on TOL.

This is NOT an inclusion of gentiles as "Israel"... this is talking about excluding unbelieving Israel from Israel.

So you admit that unbelieving Jews were expelled from Israel?

 

[Freedm]

Read the whole Bible instead of proof texting with your singular verses.

Jer 11:9-10 KJV And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. (10) They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.​

​

Note what I ACTUALLY said:

You didn't answer my question. This is a simple yes or no question. Do you believe that when Jeremiah says "its branches will be broken" in Jeremiah 11:16, that this refers to the breaking of the covenant? Yes or no.

 

[Freedm]

:juggle:

And again, you did not answer my question. Do you believe that you are a child of Abraham? Yes or no.

 

[Right Divider]

So you admit that unbelieving Jews were expelled from Israel?

It depends on what you mean. Only believing Israel will enter the restored kingdom of Israel. The gentiles nations will service Israel and both will be blessed.

 

[Right Divider]

I understand where you're coming from, based on your reading of the King James Version. However, when reading the KJV it's important to understand that it was written in the 1600's and many of those old English words have since changed their meaning, so you simply can't read it with today's meanings in mind. You have to read it with the understanding of a 17th century Englishman. (I encourage you to reference more modern translations and also to use a Lexicon such as can be found at biblehub.com)

There is nothing wrong or hard to understand in the KJV.

Specifically in Isaiah 60, I think it is the word "Gentiles" that's throwing you off.

Nope. I understand it perfectly.

We tend to think of the "Gentiles" as all those who are not physical descendents of Abraham, but really the word used here simply means "nations" or "the people". In other words, Christians are not necessarily included in this group of Gentiles.

No, I don't "tend to think" that at all. God separated Israel from the nations (gentiles).

Furthermore, if we look at the preceding verse (the last verse of Chapter 59) we can see that all of Isaiah 60 is in reference to God's covenant with the church, not with unbelieving Israel.

:dizzy:

Isaiah 59:20-21
“The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.

21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

Yep... all about Israel.

There is no reason to think that Isaiah 60 refers to anything other than the promises made to Christ, to be fulfilled on the new earth after resurrection day.

:juggle:

 

[Right Divider]

You didn't answer my question. This is a simple yes or no question. Do you believe that when Jeremiah says "its branches will be broken" in Jeremiah 11:16, that this refers to the breaking of the covenant? Yes or no.

I refuse to answer such a confused question.

 

[Right Divider]

And again, you did not answer my question. Do you believe that you are a child of Abraham? Yes or no.

You as too many leading questions. You're not looking for answer, you're looking to get back to your talking points.