ECT Tithing: Is it Biblical?

[Right Divider]

The better question is "Who is his seed?" but you seem to be ignoring that part altogether.

No, it is not the "better question" and no, I'm not "ignoring that part altogether".

Quit making false accusations.

The promises were made to Abraham and Jesus. Not Abraham and his physical descendants. Do you deny this?

Do you have a post that I made that denied this?

What were the promises?

 

[JudgeRightly]

The name Israel literally means kingdom of God.

And?

"El" is short for Elohim which means God.

Well, no.

"El" is a word on it's own. It's not short for anything. It means "god" (singular, and capital "G" when referring to YHWH).

Just as "Ellah" (two gods) and "Elohim" (plurality)

Any name ending in "El" means "Of God".

Not necessarily.

This is why the Angel names all end with "El".

We only know the names of three angels. One of those names does not fit the rule you just made up.

"Lucifer" :think:

Currently, who rules with God? The unbelievers, or the believers?

Neither. Nor will either ever rule with God.

The answer to that question determines who Israel is.

:think:

You've completely forgotten:

The Twelve Apostles (including Matthias, and not Paul) will rule on Twelve Thrones over the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Guess what, those Twelve Apostles were all...

Yup.

Jews.

 

[Right Divider]

The name Israel literally means kingdom of God. "El" is short for Elohim which means God. Any name ending in "El" means "Of God". This is why the Angel names all end with "El".

The "Isra" part of the word "Israel" is the Jewish word "Misra" which comes from the word ham·miś·rāh which means to rule as a government. Isaiah 9:6 uses this word; For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.

The word "sarar" is also derived from this same word and means "to rule, reign or act as prince". The derivative (sar) means prince, and (sarah) means princess and is nearly equal to the root of Israel as well as the name of Jacob's grandmother Sarah.

So again, the word "Israel" literally means "kingdom of God" or "To rule with God". Currently, who rules with God? The unbelievers, or the believers? The answer to that question determines who Israel is.

Fairy tale conclusion that ignores the vast majority of scripture.

 

[Freedm]

Do you have a post that I made that denied this?

I didn't say you denied it. I asked you if you denied it. Do you?

 

[Freedm]

Neither. Nor will either ever rule with God.

Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

 

[Freedm]

Fairy tale conclusion that ignores the vast majority of scripture.

On the contrary. This understanding clarifies the vast majority of scripture.

 

[Freedm]

We only know the names of three angels. One of those names does not fit the rule you just made up.

"Lucifer" :think:

Lucifer is actually the Latin word for Venus, which is also known as the morning star, but the Hebrew name for Lucifer is hei·lel. Notice it ends in "el". Look at Isaiah 14:12 for example.

The NIV translates it as morning star. The KJV translates it as Lucifer. Either way, the Hebrew name ends in "el".

 

[JudgeRightly]

Lucifer is actually the Latin word for Venus, which is also known as the morning star, but the Hebrew name for Lucifer is hei·lel. Notice it ends in "el". Look at Isaiah 14:12 for example.

The NIV translates it as morning star. The KJV translates it as Lucifer. Either way, the Hebrew name ends in "el".

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

 

[Right Divider]

I didn't say you denied it. I asked you if you denied it. Do you?

God made promises to Abraham that are realized through Isaac and Jacob. God said to Abraham that He would "make of thee a great nation". Gen 12:2

That nation is the nation of Israel. God separated them from other people. Lev 20:24

That unbelieving Israel would be judged and cast out does not change any of that.

 

[Right Divider]

On the contrary. This understanding clarifies the vast majority of scripture.

On the contrary, you seem to be a spiritualizer.

 

[Freedm]

God made promises to Abraham that are realized through Isaac and Jacob. God said to Abraham that He would "make of thee a great nation". Gen 12:2

That nation is the nation of Israel. God separated them from other people. Lev 20:24

That unbelieving Israel would be judged and cast out does not change any of that.

It's true that God separated them from other people as part of the old covenant, but in the new covenant God brought the two people back together; the Jews and the Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:14-18
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

To say that "unbelieving Israel was cast out" is not exactly right. It's more accurate to say that unbelieving citizens of Israel were cast out, and believing Gentiles were allowed in. Israel is still Israel as it was, the people of God (aka the Kingdom of God), but its citizens have changed.

Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Right Divider]

It's true that God separated them from other people as part of the old covenant, but in the new covenant God brought the two people back together; the Jews and the Gentiles.

I can see that this myth of Churchianity is something that you've embraced. But it's not true. The new covenant is a replacement for the old covenant. Scripture is crystal clear on this.

Jer 31:31-33 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

Could it even be more clear than that? Then this is also confirmed in the book to the HEBREWS.

Heb 8:8-11 KJV For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.​

That is completely CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS.

Ephesians 2:14-18

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

This refers to the body of Christ and NOT to "Jew and Gentiles together in a covenant".

To say that "unbelieving Israel was cast out" is not exactly right. It's more accurate to say that unbelieving citizens of Israel were cast out, and believing Gentiles were allowed in. Israel is still Israel as it was, the people of God (aka the Kingdom of God), but its citizens have changed.

Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel. That is nothing new.

The gospel of the kingdom refers to the earthly kingdom of Israel with Christ as king.

Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Once again, this refers to the body of Christ where there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek. Gal 3:28

Paul is not the "apostle of the new and improved Israel", he is the apostle of the gentiles. Roman 11:13

 

[Freedm]

I can see that this myth of Churchianity is something that you've embraced.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Jer 31:31-33 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

Could it even be more clear than that? Then this is also confirmed in the book to the HEBREWS.

Heb 8:8-11 KJV For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.​

That is completely CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS.

Sure. If you know what God means when he says "Israel".

This refers to the body of Christ and NOT to "Jew and Gentiles together in a covenant".

So you think the two groups that God has brought together in Christ are... what exactly?

 

[Right Divider]

I don't know what you mean by that.

This was explained in the post to which you replied.

The new covenant is between the same two parties as the old covenant. Scripture is crystal clear and unambiguous about that.

Sure. If you know what God means when he says "Israel".

I know what God means by that. You and many other seem to want to spiritualize it into a myth that is completely false.

So you think the two groups that God has brought together in Christ are... what exactly?

Jews and gentiles... Everyone is able to join in the body of Christ without distinction.

The body of Christ is NOT Israel, in any way shape or form. There will be a time when the body of Christ is removed and God will resume His plans for Israel above the other nations (gentiles). The book of Revelation and prophesy is very clear about this.

The body of Christ was a mystery until revealed to and through the apostle Paul and it comes to an end in the future when God resumes His plan with Israel and restores the kingdom to Israel.

Luk 1:31-33 KJV And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.​

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[Freedm]

This was explained in the post to which you replied.

You said "I can see that this myth of Churchianity is something that you've embraced.". That's what I'd like an explanation to. What do you mean by "myth of Churchianity"?

Jews and gentiles... Everyone is able to join in the body of Christ without distinction.

So if you agree that Jews and Gentiles have been joined together to form one body (the body of Christ) then are you proposing that these Jews are no longer citizens of Israel? That they've left Israel in order to join the body of Christ? Or do you think that they are members of both Israel and the body of Christ?

The body of Christ is NOT Israel, in any way shape or form. There will be a time when the body of Christ is removed and God will resume His plans for Israel above the other nations (gentiles).

The book of Revelation and prophesy is very clear about this.

Obviously the book of Revelation and prophesy are not very clear about that at all because I don't see it. Can you give me some specific scripture to support your statement that "God will resume His plans for Israel, after the body of Christ is removed"?

Luk 1:31-33 KJV And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[/COLOR][/INDENT]

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I'm not sure how you think that verse supports your position or contradicts mine.

 

[Right Divider]

You said "I can see that this myth of Churchianity is something that you've embraced.". That's what I'd like an explanation to. What do you mean by "myth of Churchianity"?

One of the many myths of Churchianity is that the new covenant is between anyone but Israel and God.

So if you agree that Jews and Gentiles have been joined together to form one body (the body of Christ) then are you proposing that these Jews are no longer citizens of Israel? That they've left Israel in order to join the body of Christ? Or do you think that they are members of both Israel and the body of Christ?

God does not change a persons calling. So those that were believers in Israel are not "moved into" the body of Christ.

The twelve apostles will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That has not changed.

Obviously the book of Revelation and prophesy are not very clear about that at all because I don't see it.

Because you can't see, it's not clear? That's bad logic.

Can you give me some specific scripture to support your statement that "God will resume His plans for Israel, after the body of Christ is removed"?

Compare Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21 and you'll see that the future holds where Israel is served by the gentiles nations.

I'm not sure how you think that verse supports your position or contradicts mine.

Do you know what "the throne of David" is? Or "the house of Jacob"?

 

[Freedm]

One of the many myths of Churchianity is that the new covenant is between anyone but Israel and God.

Oh, no I don't believe that. I believe the covenant is between Israel and God. We just don't agree on who Israel is.

 

[God's Truth]

Tithing is Old Covenant.

 

[God's Truth]

Anyone who comes to Jesus to have their sins washed away by his blood shed on the cross is in the New Covenant.

Mathew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Freedm]

God does not change a persons calling. So those that were believers in Israel are not "moved into" the body of Christ.

What do you think Jeremiah meant when he said the branches would be broken?

Jeremiah 11:16
The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm he will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken.

Because you can't see, it's not clear? That's bad logic.

No, that's actually perfect logic. Regardless, why don't you enlighten me, since you seem to have it all figured out. As I said, please you give me some specific scripture to support your statement that "God will resume His plans for Israel, after the body of Christ is removed"? And don't give me some vague references to entire books and tell me to study. Spell this out for me. Pretend I know nothing. I've heard many people make this same claim as you but nobody has ever been able to show this in scripture. Are you any different?

Compare Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21 and you'll see that the future holds where Israel is served by the gentiles nations.

Both Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21 are speaking of the new earth on which the New Jerusalem, that is those who are members of the new covenant, will live with God forever. These are the believers. Don't you agree with that?

Do you know what "the throne of David" is? Or "the house of Jacob"?

The throne of David is the throne of the King of Israel which is the throne upon which Jesus sits. Why do you ask?