Thoughts and Prayers?

[jeffk]

Hey all!

I'm new to this whole forum, but I thought I'd dive right in and post a couple of things.

A buddy of mine and I started a theology vlog on youtube. We are tackling different topics, but we started with the question "what is prayer and why is it important?" This led us to do a video on the issue of "thoughts and prayers" being a really hollow statement sometimes.

So here's the question; if "thoughts and prayers" aren't accompanied by action, are they rendered inadequate? To what extent do we simply sit back and pray versus actively engage in the issue at hand?

If you want to check out what I had to say about it, here is the link to the vlog episode.

Thanks for your thoughts!

J

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwFEuh3nmGM

 

[patrick jane]

Hey all!

I'm new to this whole forum, but I thought I'd dive right in and post a couple of things.

A buddy of mine and I started a theology vlog on youtube. We are tackling different topics, but we started with the question "what is prayer and why is it important?" This led us to do a video on the issue of "thoughts and prayers" being a really hollow statement sometimes.

So here's the question; if "thoughts and prayers" aren't accompanied by action, are they rendered inadequate? To what extent do we simply sit back and pray versus actively engage in the issue at hand?

If you want to check out what I had to say about it, here is the link to the vlog episode.

Thanks for your thoughts!

J

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwFEuh3nmGM

James 5 - KJV - [FONT=&quot]Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/FONT]

 

[jeffk]

Hey Patrick, the book of James came to my mind too.

Especially James 2:


14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

I was thinking that this is why a lot of people view "thoughts and prayers" as hollow because it never leads to anything.

 

[Tambora]

Hey Patrick, the book of James came to my mind too.

Especially James 2:


14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

I was thinking that this is why a lot of people view "thoughts and prayers" as hollow because it never leads to anything.

I think the phrase a brother or a sister is used for a reason, and to not to specify just any ol' body in the whole world.

 

[The Barbarian]

I think the phrase a brother or a sister is used for a reason, and to not to specify just any ol' body in the whole world.

Who is your neighbor?

The Teacher was asked: “Who is my neighbor?”

In reply, the Teacher said:
“A man was going home from work one night, when he was attacked by robbers. They took everything he had, beat him, and left him for dead.

A church-going Christian happened by, and when he saw the man, thought 'probably a drug deal gone bad', and crossed to the other side of the street. So too, a wealthy businessman passed by, saw him and said 'An obvious loser. I like winners.' And he, too crossed to the other side of the street.

But an illegal alien, driving home saw the man. He stopped his truck, got the first aid kit out of his truck box and tended to the man's wounds. He put the man in his truck and drove to an emergency room.

'Does he have insurance?' they asked. 'I don't know', said the illegal alien. 'I have this much from my last job; if it costs more, I will pay for it, if he has no insurance.'

"Which of these three do you think was the neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

They replied, 'The one who had mercy on him.'

The Teacher told them, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[Tambora]

Who is your neighbor?

The Teacher was asked: “Who is my neighbor?”

In reply, the Teacher said:
“A man was going home from work one night, when he was attacked by robbers. They took everything he had, beat him, and left him for dead.

A church-going Christian happened by, and when he saw the man, thought 'probably a drug deal gone bad', and crossed to the other side of the street. So too, a wealthy businessman passed by, saw him and said 'An obvious loser. I like winners.' And he, too crossed to the other side of the street.

But an illegal alien, driving home saw the man. He stopped his truck, got the first aid kit out of his truck box and tended to the man's wounds. He put the man in his truck and drove to an emergency room.

'Does he have insurance?' they asked. 'I don't know', said the illegal alien. 'I have this much from my last job; if it costs more, I will pay for it, if he has no insurance.'

"Which of these three do you think was the neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

They replied, 'The one who had mercy on him.'

The Teacher told them, “Go and do likewise.”

Ummm, we are talking about brother and sister, not some neighbor that is a stranger.

Brother and sister is a much more intimate relationship than some neighbor who is a stranger.
You can have neighbors that are not brothers and sisters.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

J

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwFEuh3nmGM

Good video, I especially like the part where you talked about James and faith without works.

I'm one who believes that much of the misery and despair seen throughout the world can be traced to the type of government that the people allow themselves to be ruled under.

While the Church has it's biblical role, which it isn't living up to, so does civil government (as well as the family).

http://vftonline.org/VFTfiles/thesi...HE NEGLECTED MINISTRY, by Archie P_ Jones.htm

 

[The Barbarian]

Ummm, we are talking about brother and sister, not some neighbor that is a stranger.

The man found a stranger in need and treated him like a family member, treating his wounds and paying for his care. Jesus is telling you that there is no difference. As Toynbee wrote, Jesus shows us the way out of a cycle of violence and revenge by telling us that we are all neighbors. Those who accept His words are freed from that cycle of death.

Listen to Him, and don't try to use scripture like a lawyer looking for loopholes.

 

[jeffk]

Thanks so much! I think there is a lot of good things about prayer in that passage from James.

I think that one of the major reasons that "thoughts and prayers" sounds so hollow is that it is often said in place of action. We are really good at "praying" for others when it doesn't require something from us.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[jeffk]

Good video, I especially like the part where you talked about James and faith without works.

I'm one who believes that much of the misery and despair seen throughout the world can be traced to the type of government that the people allow themselves to be ruled under.

While the Church has it's biblical role, which it isn't living up to, so does civil government (as well as the family).

http://vftonline.org/VFTfiles/thesi...HE NEGLECTED MINISTRY, by Archie P_ Jones.htm

Thanks so much! I think there is a lot of good things about prayer in that passage from James.

I think that one of the major reasons that "thoughts and prayers" sounds so hollow is that it is often said in place of action. We are really good at "praying" for others when it doesn't require something from us.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[jeffk]

Hey Tambora, I humbly disagree. I think that the term brother or sister is reflective of a larger, collective identity and not someone who is directly related to you via blood, ethnicity, etc.

If you look at the trajectory of the New Testament, Jesus spends a lot of time focusing on those who are not "neighbors" of the Jews. Samaritans in particular are historically at odds with the Jewish people, so for Jesus to spend time with them and instruct his disciples to take the gospel to them, it shows that the idea of neighbor is not limited to close proximity.

I think that this passage points to the larger reality. If we limit ourselves to our "brothers and sisters" in the sense of closeness, then what is the point of the great commission? Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Ktoyou]

Politics anyone?

 

[Lon]

Thanks so much! I think there is a lot of good things about prayer in that passage from James.

I think that one of the major reasons that "thoughts and prayers" sounds so hollow is that it is often said in place of action. We are really good at "praying" for others when it doesn't require something from us.

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm not so sure we are good about praying. If we aren't doing it regularly, I'd think for that girl/guy, it'd be hard.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Thanks so much! I think there is a lot of good things about prayer in that passage from James.

I think that one of the major reasons that "thoughts and prayers" sounds so hollow is that it is often said in place of action. We are really good at "praying" for others when it doesn't require something from us.

Thanks for the feedback!

Prayer is not so much about the form as it is about the substance and attitude of the one praying. I can say "thoughts and prayers" and really mean someone will be in my thoughts and my prayers. My prayer may even be, and often is, coincident with my statement. I need not retire to my prayer closet to conduct formalized prayers.

We often groan inwardly (Romans 8:26-27), not having the words, but with the help of the Spirit, our prayers are lifted upwards when we genuinely mean to pray. We are admonished to be in a constant state of prayer, without ceasing (1 Thess. 5:17). "We are to do no activity which we cannot entitle God to, and truly say that He set you about it, and do nothing in the world for any other ultimate purpose than to please, glorify and enjoy Him". "Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31.


AMR

 

[jeffk]

Prayer is not so much about the form as it is about the substance and attitude of the one praying. I can say "thoughts and prayers" and really mean someone will be in my thoughts and my prayers. My prayer may even be, and often is, coincident with my statement. I need not retire to my prayer closet to conduct formalized prayers.

We often groan inwardly (Romans 8:26-27), not having the words, but with the help of the Spirit, our prayers are lifted upwards when we genuinely mean to pray. We are admonished to be in a constant state of prayer, without ceasing (1 Thess. 5:17). "We are to do no activity which we cannot entitle God to, and truly say that He set you about it, and do nothing in the world for any other ultimate purpose than to please, glorify and enjoy Him". "Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Corinthians 10:31.


AMR

Thanks so much for bringing this up. I think it is absolutely important to recognize that there is sincerity in "thoughts and prayers" when the person saying it truly does mean it. I think what I'm speaking to is when it is used as a platitude by public figures and politicians. I would hope that whenever a believer extends thoughts and prayers, that they truly mean it. Sadly, though, I don't think that is the case. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[nikolai_42]

The man found a stranger in need and treated him like a family member, treating his wounds and paying for his care. Jesus is telling you that there is no difference. As Toynbee wrote, Jesus shows us the way out of a cycle of violence and revenge by telling us that we are all neighbors. Those who accept His words are freed from that cycle of death.

Listen to Him, and don't try to use scripture like a lawyer looking for loopholes.

While Jesus was, indeed, showing the Jews that they were to show mercy to everyone and that Samaritans were worthy of their kindness, the "brotherhood of man" concept cannot trump the "community of faith" - because to do so is to undermine that which is primary at the expense of that which is secondary. And while I'm saying tending to someone's physical needs is secondary, I don't mean it is to be left until after spiritual needs are addressed. The spiritual need is really far more important to the One who said "The poor you have with you always" but the physical need is a means to be able to address the spiritual. What the social gospel does is to conflate the two and make them one, indiscriminate lump and so appeal to the masses who are (naturally) more inclined to be worried about food, clothing and shelter. Solving that will not solve man's spiritual need, but solving the spiritual need will enable one to realize this :

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Matthew 6:8

...and a little later, this :

And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Matthew 6:28-34

Since the poor will always be there, there is always an avenue by which the true gospel can be preached, but in no way is Jesus enjoining men to meet each other's physical needs as a solution to "the cycle of death". The wages of sin is death - there's no escaping that (except by Christ Himself).

James' words are meant to counteract the tendency of a believer to so belittle the physical (because they have the spiritual sustenance) that they do the gospel a disservice. Not to command a perpetual natural "salvation" such that men are saved by their love of - and service to - their fellow man.

EDIT : To the source of the OP (the lashing out of those who suffered because of the school shooting), I would agree that for a people to offer "thoughts and prayers" is good - but to think making that a public declaration is of any use is to miss the whole point in prayer. The Pharisees prayed to be seen by men. Better to say nothing and actually pray in secret for the victims' families than to make a public pronouncement that they have our thoughts and prayers.

 

[jgarden]

Hey Patrick, the book of James came to my mind too.

Especially James 2:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

I was thinking that this is why a lot of people view "thoughts and prayers" as hollow because it never leads to anything.

Not by Faith Alone: The Martin Luther Paradox

Martin Luther struggled greatly with James' "not by faith alone" (Jam. 2:24). In fact, he once offered his doctor's cap to anyone who could reconcile it with Romans 3:28 and scoffed at his friend, Philip Melanchthon, for attempting it.

To Martin Luther, James was an epistle of straw that had "nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it."

Here's our two verses:

•Romans 3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.

•James 2:24: You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

https://www.christian-history.org/not-by-faith-alone.html

Martin Luther had difficulty reconciling The Book of James with the theology presented by Paul in Romans!

Just because it bears an Apostle's name is no guarantee that "James" was written by "James!"

If you read James, Jesus/Christ is only mentioned a few times, suggesting that James may not have been originally written for a Christian audience, but a Jewish one and was later adapted!

"James" focuses a living a moral life, a theme that while applicable, is not limited to Christianity but also relevant to Judaism.

That might explain as to why Luther considered it "an epistle of straw" and that it had "nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it."

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

computer game playing bible teacher

 

[Tambora]

Hey Tambora, I humbly disagree. I think that the term brother or sister is reflective of a larger, collective identity and not someone who is directly related to you via blood, ethnicity, etc.

If you look at the trajectory of the New Testament, Jesus spends a lot of time focusing on those who are not "neighbors" of the Jews. Samaritans in particular are historically at odds with the Jewish people, so for Jesus to spend time with them and instruct his disciples to take the gospel to them, it shows that the idea of neighbor is not limited to close proximity.

I think that this passage points to the larger reality. If we limit ourselves to our "brothers and sisters" in the sense of closeness, then what is the point of the great commission? Thanks for your thoughts!

I'm not talking about brother and sister being only a biological blood relation.

Brother and sister is a more intimate form of speech than 'neighbor'.
A form of speech that denotes a more family oriented type of relationship.
The most intimate, of course, would be your own family structure, and that structure does not have to be all blood related.

Falls along the lines of the old saying you often hear ----- "Charity begins at home".
Because if you cannot manage your own household then you are not qualified to manage the house of GOD (1 Tim 3:5).

That "family" structure can broaden ----- own immediate family, community, tribe, nation.
But the foundation of your actions begins with your own immediate family.
If you can't get that right, then you have no business trying to broaden your inadequate managing skills to a wider audience.