ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement

[Arsenios]

Sometimes brevity is the most important aspect of a well written text. Great answer and I didn't have to stay up all night, tying to figure out what the heck you were talking about.

I hadn't weighed in on this one, but it is, for the Orthodox, a no-brainer...

You see, the Psalms were not numbered, and in the first thousand years, IF you were going to be an Orthodox Bishop, the Canonical requirement was that you had memorized the entire Psalter of 150 Psalms... So that each Psalm was designated by its opening words, which would trigger the memory for the rest...

So that for the Orthodox, the Son was obviously NOT being abandoned by the Father in the agony of the Cross... But instead The Son was giving witness to the Scripture...

That said, there does come a time in one's advancement in relationship with Christ, Who is OUR Father, when at the end, we will be tempted where we think that we are abandoned by God, and it is a pivotal point, because it is there that we are to hold to the Good no matter what, knowing that the Good is Good for Goodness, and that even in the absence of the One Who Good IS, we still want the Good...

Or not...

Which separates some chaff from the wheat...

"Precious in the Sight of the Lord...
Is the Death of His Holy Ones..."

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

One more thing: ... It was Barth who said,
"All theologies are but human inventions."
More true than you will ever admit, I am sure,
but true, nonetheless.

In the Orthodox Faith, we have perhaps a total 5 recognized theologians in our 2000 year history since Pentecost... Beginning with St. John the Evangellist and Theologian, author of the Apocalypse...

In the West, Barth is doubtless correct...

In the East, Theology and its Dogmatics are empirical...

Almost none of the true theologians write about it...

Christ Himself, for instance, only wrote in the dirt...

Arsenios

 

[patrick jane]

One more thing: it is never about you and "just the Bible."

For starters, that book you call "The Bible" is the result of decades of very involved work as to its translation.

Laugh and poke fun of the intellectual all you want ---

i don't




whatever makes you feel good about yourself. Just know this: you would not have a Bible to read if not for the intellectuals

you seem to abhor.

i don't


Linguistics, etymologies, syntax, grammar, culture, all play important roles in the creation and study of the Bible. Even politics !! Oh yes. In some cases, within the Sacred Text, politics play a role in the translation process. That is why "baptism" is the English "translation" rather than "immersion," and "church" rather than "assembly." But, how would you know since

"it is just you and the Bible?"

it's not


And what role does

personal bias play in your understanding of any number of biblical dogma?

it doesn't

No one is wholly objective, no one.

never said i was


To make matters worse, our biases amend themselves over the years, for better or worse, but, they never, ever, simply go away. Again, it is never about "just you and the Bible." When you sit down to study,

you are always accompanied with your intellectual bias,

i'm not

your prejudice, your illogic, your lack of education and so on. Don't misunderstand, what I have just listed as your companions in study, are the companions of us all.

Finally, there is the silliness of the notion "that what is critical is what the Bible says." Sounds good, I know. But the truth of the matter is this: It is never as simple as "this is what the Bible says." Rather, the truth of the matter is this: it is always "this is what I believe the Bible says."

Once in a while "Barth" is mentioned, here on TOL. It was Barth who said, "All theologies are but human inventions." More true than you will ever admit, I am sure, but true, nonetheless.

i have never said anything about barth


thank you for the psychoanalysis ! ! ! God Bless you ! ! ! -

 

[jsjohnnt]

i never said anything about barth. that's why i read the Bible many times before searching "theology". i'm glad, because i see so many confused folks like you here. i certainly agree with theologians i agree with. thanks - atrol:

PJ, you kind of missed my point, almost entirely. Oh well.

 

[jsjohnnt]

delete

 

[jsjohnnt]

In the Orthodox Faith, we have perhaps a total 5 recognized theologians in our 2000 year history since Pentecost... Beginning with St. John the Evangellist and Theologian, author of the Apocalypse...

In the West, Barth is doubtless correct...

In the East, Theology and its Dogmatics are empirical...

Almost none of the true theologians write about it...

Christ Himself, for instance, only wrote in the dirt...

Arsenios

Empirical versus what? And, in practical terms, how does Eastern theology differ from Western theology?

BTW, a couple of interesting posts.

 

[jsjohnnt]

To those in charge: I have increased the reputations of other, since last doing so for TFTn5280. Could someone fix the problem, so I can, again, add to the man's reputation? Tks.

 

[Totton Linnet]

This is the third post in which I have written that the Life that is received WAS received by ALL the Old Testament Prophets, and each and every one of them received it APART FROM the Mystery of the Faith of Christ...

Here is Scripture:

John 7:37-9
In the last day, that great day of the Feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying:
"If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
He who is believing in Me, as the scripture hath said:
'Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.'"
(But this spake He of the Spirit,
which they that are believing in Him should receive,
for the Holy Spirit was not yet given;
because Jesus was not yet Glorified.)

You can see that what is given is NOT what WAS given to the Prophets before Christ, yet is the SAME Holy Spirit...

Then:

John 20:22
And when He had said this,
He breathed on them,
and saith unto them,
"Receive ye the Holy Spirit:"

So here we have the Holy Spirit given and received, AFTER the Resurrection which Glorified Christ... Yet remember, this was given by Christ BREATHING ON them with His breath, which is the Sacrament, the Mystery, that you scorn with your understanding... And even WITH this, they STILL were weak until 50 days after His ascension, at Pentecost...

Then we have, following the Baptism of John from God, this extraordinary promise in Acts:

Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water;
but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit
not many days hence.

Followed by:

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you:

Can you see the difference? The difference between receiving the Holy Spirit by Christ breathing on them and the receiving of Power after the Holy Spirit "has come upon" them? The first is Sacramental by Christ, and later by Him through the hands of His Servants, and GIVES the Holy Spirit... The second is Spiritual, and is given directly by the Holy Spirit, bestowing Power to those who already HAVE been GIVEN the Holy Spirit, but are still weak...

Then we find Peter proclaiming to the Gentiles in Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them,
"Be ye repenting,
and be ye baptized,
every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ,
for the remission of sins,
and...
Ye shall receive the Gift
of the Holy Spirit. "

So we know what Baptism following repentance under the instruction of an Apostle of Christ does: Sins are remitted, and the Gift of the Holy Spirit is received. "Of God the Gift", remember? Not of works, lest any man boast... THIS is WHERE it is GIVEN... And this Gift of God is GIVEN by the Servants of Christ, the gift of the Holy Spirit, in a way that it was NOT given to the Holy Prophets of the Old Testament...

And it was this Gift that Simon the Sorcerer sought from Peter, for he misunderstood what it was, and he asked that it be given to him:

Acts 8:19
Saying,
"Give me also this Power,
that on whomsoever I lay hands,
he should receive the Holy Spirit."

So that it IS an Apostolically transmitted Gift...
But not on "whomsoever"...
But only on those to whom God directs the Gift be given...
And the Sacrament of Laying on of Hands is involved...

So that the Power of the Holy Spirit is not the Gift of the Holy Spirit...
The OT Prophets ALL had the Power...
None had the Gift...

Because the Gift is what creates the New Creation in Christ...

And we are Baptized INTO Christ...

And GIVEN the Gift of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

This is full of holes, but I would first point out to you that as a Catholic I received stitch from sacraments whether penance, communion or confirmation, nor do I know of a single Catholic who does receive anything.

Nor when the trials and temptations come do they have power, nor in the main are they strong on witnessing of Christ.

We read of Cornelius and his household that Peter merely preached and the Holy Ghost fell upon them as at the first, before any laying on of hands or baptism.

Water baptism is a work.

 

[Omniskeptical]

Hebrews 6:4-6

Oh puhlease, the two are not the same. Ignatius the church father was a valentinian who met Polycarp.

 

[TFTn5280]

I hadn't weighed in on this one, but it is, for the Orthodox, a no-brainer...

You see, the Psalms were not numbered, and in the first thousand years, IF you were going to be an Orthodox Bishop, the Canonical requirement was that you had memorized the entire Psalter of 150 Psalms... So that each Psalm was designated by its opening words, which would trigger the memory for the rest...

So that for the Orthodox, the Son was obviously NOT being abandoned by the Father in the agony of the Cross... But instead The Son was giving witness to the Scripture...

That said, there does come a time in one's advancement in relationship with Christ, Who is OUR Father, when at the end, we will be tempted where we think that we are abandoned by God, and it is a pivotal point, because it is there that we are to hold to the Good no matter what, knowing that the Good is Good for Goodness, and that even in the absence of the One Who Good IS, we still want the Good...

Or not...

Which separates some chaff from the wheat...

"Precious in the Sight of the Lord...
Is the Death of His Holy Ones..."

Arsenios

As much as we seem to disagree, Arsenios, I'm glad you're here to pester me ... 'cause every now and then you knock off a gem like this one! Thanks,

 

[Arsenios]

Empirical versus what?

Conjectural...

Inferential based on the words of Holy Writ...

Speculative...

Flash of insight and its outworkings...

Instead of these, it is empirical...

The words of the holy ones of God are descriptive...

John wrote: o theos agaph estin... God Love IS... He is describing in human terms, as simply as he can, what he has PERCEIVED noetically in Divine Vision... He is describing something few have perceived empirically - eg the Power of Love to create and sustain all of existence... Who has 'seen' such a thing? But he did...

And, in practical terms, how does Eastern theology differ from Western theology?

Eastern is practical - immediately...

Western is more along the lines of the Jews who spoke in terms of IF... The outworkings are left to figure out or become manifest with time - And a lot of arguing about implications being necessary of optional...

But more than that, the eastern theology is concerned with the preparation of the person for encountering God... And for deepening one's encounters with God... A lot...

Western theology is much more logically concerned with systematic explication of theoretical constructs that explain what the Bible means...

In the East, after 2000 years of living the Faith of Jesus Christ that caused the Bible to be written, we are no longer flopping around on the ice fresh caught and reading the Bible for new theological insights for our systems of thought... Our concern is the preparation of our souls for the Bridegroom, lamenting our sins, and calling on the Name of the Lord, taking the Cup of Salvation... Our theology is intimately concerned with how repentance works and what it looks like, and the how-to of what happens within divine encounters, and what that looks like...

The concern of our theology is the DOING of God's Word...

In the West, it is defending one's VERSION of God's Word...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This is full of holes, but I would first point out to you that as a Catholic I received stitch from sacraments whether penance, communion or confirmation, nor do I know of a single Catholic who does receive anything.

I am not surprised - Your Church is not catholic - It is Papal... the Latin Papalists have been apostatically out of Communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church of which they were previously IN Communion for a thousand years now...

Nor when the trials and temptations come do they have power, nor in the main are they strong on witnessing of Christ. [

Nor am I surprised at this either, for the same reasons... The great Grace that Rome once held for Her first thousand years has dwindled in Her second thousand years of apostacy... It is almost gone now...

We read of Cornelius and his household that Peter merely preached and the Holy Ghost fell upon them as at the first, before any laying on of hands or baptism.

That is correct - The Pentecost of the Gentiles - So why then did Peter Baptize them?

Water baptism is a work.

Why did Ananias baptize Paul? Does not Scripture record that it was to give him the Holy Spirit?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

As much as we seem to disagree, Arsenios, I'm glad you're here to pester me ... 'cause every now and then you knock off a gem like this one! Thanks,

Mere tinker-toys, me-boy!

Mere tinker-toys!

No you vorrie...

Me-be-back!

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, I'm glad ... 'cause every now and then
you knock off a gem like this one!
Thanks,

Gawrsch...

T'warn't nuttin'...

Geepers...

Gosh...

A.

 

[TFTn5280]

I hadn't weighed in on this one, but it is, for the Orthodox, a no-brainer...

You see, the Psalms were not numbered, and in the first thousand years, IF you were going to be an Orthodox Bishop, the Canonical requirement was that you had memorized the entire Psalter of 150 Psalms... So that each Psalm was designated by its opening words, which would trigger the memory for the rest...

<SNIP>

Arsenios

Which speaks to the point of my fairly lengthy post: Where do you think the Orthodox got this if not from the tradition set before it of Jews memorizing the Psalms the same way ~ by way of jingle, the first lines kick-starting the memory of the remainder of the Psalm? Thereby buttressing ~ in fact, driving home ~ the point that the Passion was not in the least about the Father forsaking the Son, a teaching the Western Church has been tethered to since Augustine ~ and a teaching that our Calvinist siblings are going to have a really difficult time getting over, because it seriously messes up their theology. They've gotta have the Father pounding the Son in order to appropriate the psychosis of all that punishment stuff. In response to their response, I can only say, See, I told you so.

 

[Arsenios]

Which speaks to the point of my fairly lengthy post: Where do you think the Orthodox got this if not from the tradition before it of Jews memorizing the Psalms the same way ~ by way of jingle, the first lines kick-starting the memory of the remainder of the Psalm? THEREBY BUTTRESSING ~ IN FACT, DRIVING HOME ~ THE POINT THAT THE PASSION WAS NOT IN THE LEAST ABOUT THE FATHER FORSAKING THE SON, A TEACHING THE WESTERN CHURCH HAS BEEN TETHERED TO SINCE AUGUSTINE ~ AND A TEACHING THAT OUR CALVINIST SIBLINGS ARE GOING TO HAVE A REALLY DIFFICULT TIME GETTING OVER, BECAUSE IT SERIOUSLY MESSES UP THEIR THEOLOGY. THEY'VE GOTTA HAVE THE FATHER POUNDING THE SON IN ORDER TO GET THROUGH THE PSYCHOSIS OF ALL THIS PUNISHMENT STUFF. To which to their response, all I can say is, See, I told you so.

You are preaching to the choir, my Dear...

Now I am going to slip a little secret on over to you, and you have to promise NOT to tell anyone ever... This wonderful NEW IDEA you have come up with, is as old as the dirt on Paul's smelly toes, and it has emerged FROM the Orthodox Faith in RESPONSE to Calvinist error, and has been around for some time now, thanks to the Orthodox...

I have been answering Calvinists with it on line for some 7 years now, and have been pretty much ignored - That was over on Dee Dee Warren's TheologyWeb site... I cannot tell you how gratifying it is to see it now being EXPLAINED, with some patience, I should add, to ME... Can't improve on THAT!

But Paul argued from Scripture with the Jews ad nauseum, and some came over to his way of thinking, but the Jews as a whole did not... And that is what I expect will happen with the Protestants... Some will convert, and most will stay in their own personal theological constructs... And continue in their originating tradition of arguing, against Rome at all times, and with each other when things are slow... In their laziness, they mentally lump the Orthodox with the apostatic Latins...

Arsenios

 

[TFTn5280]

You are preaching to the choir, my Dear...

Now I am going to slip a little secret on over to you, and you have to promise NOT to tell anyone ever... This wonderful NEW IDEA you have come up with, is as old as the dirt on Paul's smelly toes, and it has emerged FROM the Orthodox Faith in RESPONSE to Calvinist error, and has been around for some time now, thanks to the Orthodox...

I have been answering Calvinists with it on line for some 7 years now, and have been pretty much ignored - That was over on Dee Dee Warren's TheologyWeb site... I cannot tell you how gratifying it is to see it now being EXPLAINED, with some patience, I should add, to ME... Can't improve on THAT!

But Paul argued from Scripture with the Jews ad nauseum, and some came over to his way of thinking, but the Jews as a whole did not... And that is what I expect will happen with the Protestants... Some will convert, and most will stay in their own personal theological constructs... And continue in their originating tradition of arguing, against Rome at all times, and with each other when things are slow... In their laziness, they mentally lump the Orthodox with the apostatic Latins...

Arsenios

PSST...Between you and me, I was aware that this is a western phenomenon

 

[Arsenios]

PSST...Between you and me, I was aware that this is a western phenomenon

I noticed it...

Arsenios

 

[Cross Reference]

I am not going to load a plug in to watch what you found on the internet
but
I will try to point out that atonement and redemption are nearly the same
we don't use the word atonement
Jesus redeemed us all
that doesn't mean your sins are forgiven
that doesn't mean you are saved
it just means that you can be saved
it means you still have to repent

Absolutely! Clear and simple and to the point.

 

[Cross Reference]

I am not surprised - Your Church is not catholic - It is Papal... the Latin Papalists have been apostatically out of Communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church of which they were previously IN Communion for a thousand years now...



Nor am I surprised at this either, for the same reasons... The great Grace that Rome once held for Her first thousand years has dwindled in Her second thousand years of apostacy... It is almost gone now...



That is correct - The Pentecost of the Gentiles - So why then did Peter Baptize them?



Why did Ananias baptize Paul? Does not Scripture record that it was to give him the Holy Spirit?

Arsenios

As it was for Jesus, was it not "to fulfill all righteousness"? __ If not, then why was Jesus baptized in water?