ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement

Arsenios

Well-known member
For my (perhaps changing) interpretation of the gate see my edited response to JSJOHNNT

When John the Baptist proclaimed the Kingdom of God upon this earth, he was proclaiming the presence of Christ here and now... Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, in the flesh of the members of His Body, the Ekklesia, here and now on earth...

THEREFORE... (can you hear the drumroll?)

Christ IS the narrow Gate...

BECAUSE...

The Body is HIS Body...

It is entered by repentance followed by Baptism into Christ...

Repent and be Baptized...
For the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND...


That is the Gospel of Christ...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
While you are absolutely right about Paul and his teaching as to the Gentiles, still, I hold (exegetically speaking) to the fact that Matt 7 was not about the Gentiles. When we conflate biblical statements and their particular context(s), we run the risk of making more of a given passage of scripture than was intended at the time it was written or spoken.

IF Christ is preaching the Way of Affliction...

and...

IF Paul is writing of what this Way looks like...

THEN they are both speaking of the SAME WAY...

The Way of Affliction...

Arsenios
 

jsjohnnt

New member
Do you believe James contradicts Paul?

Or was James addressing a dispersed church, while Paul described the universal condition of mankind?



As far as any of us are diligent to let Scripture interpret itself, according to the entirety of the Scriptures, will any of us come to knowledge of God's Truth.

Any and all of us can, or should certainly understand, that the Holy Word of God never contradicts itself. If any inspired teaching seems at odds with the whole, the trouble resides in our finite minds; not in the perfect words of God.
Please go back to my post and note the use of "seems" and "seemingly." I hope this will help put my comments into their intended context.
 

jsjohnnt

New member
IF Christ is preaching the Way of Affliction...

and...

IF Paul is writing of what this Way looks like...

THEN they are both speaking of the SAME WAY...

The Way of Affliction...

Arsenios
I do not accept that conclusion. Certainly one statement does not contradict the other, but Paul was talking to largely Jewish Church in Corinth about the Gentile reality. Christ was talking to Jews about a Jewish reality.
 

TFTn5280

New member
When John the Baptist proclaimed the Kingdom of God upon this earth, he was proclaiming the presence of Christ here and now... Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, in the flesh of the members of His Body, the Ekklesia, here and now on earth...

THEREFORE... (can you hear the drumroll?)

Christ IS the narrow Gate...

BECAUSE...

The Body is HIS Body...

It is entered by repentance followed by Baptism into Christ...

Repent and be Baptized...
For the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND...


That is the Gospel of Christ...


Arsenios

Well, we're not always going to agree on everything. But like I said, I'm considering your view.

When Jesus said "be perfect...", he was saying there are two ways to salvation: the way which came through him or the way of perfection on their own part (gentiles and thus you, perhaps not included here). They, being disqualified because of imperfection, left only the way of Christ, the straight road he traveled on their (and your) behalf.
 

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
This is the very "sinful nature" Christ took on His very Person in His incarnation,
And elevated it to the Right Hand of the Most High...
After healing it of all its infirmities...

Arsenios
You sound like a Roman Catholic. Next you will tell us how God suffered, which is equivalent to the father suffered; and then how we should carry our cross daily, though in the originally Greek manuscripts it not even omitted, but rather not written originally to begin with.
 

Omniskeptical

BANNED
Banned
When John the Baptist proclaimed the Kingdom of God upon this earth, he was proclaiming the presence of Christ here and now... Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, in the flesh of the members of His Body, the Ekklesia, here and now on earth...

THEREFORE... (can you hear the drumroll?)

Christ IS the narrow Gate...

BECAUSE...

The Body is HIS Body...

It is entered by repentance followed by Baptism into Christ...

Repent and be Baptized...
For the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND...


That is the Gospel of Christ...


Arsenios
Wrong, the gospel was "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." There is a difference between what was the kingdom of heaven, and what is the kingdom of God.
 

TFTn5280

New member
AMR has recently asked a few of us to read/reread the Canons of Dordt regarding this matter.

Those Canons were in response to Arminius' views (and thus those of Arminianism). They do not extend to address the view of universal atonement that I am setting forth (the view of Irenaeus, Athanasius, and Gregory Nazianzen, all prior to Augustine and his debate with Pelagius, which so shaped western Christianity and set it on the path of Calvinism vs Arminianism) a view that evidently I am the only one here who holds and a view that has been so distorted now by others, who hold to "universal atonement," that probably no one is going to be able to get. Thanks for the invitation.
 
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Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Well, He was certainly speaking TO the Jews,
but He was speaking ABOUT the Kingdom of Heaven,
and entry through the Gate (Christ) into it,
and the walk of afflictions its Way...

Paul describes and prescribes it for you and me here:
1 Cor 9-16 :

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last,
as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle
unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake,
but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak,
but ye are strong;
ye are honourable,
but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour
we both hunger, and thirst,
and are naked,
and are buffeted,
and have no certain dwelling place;
And labour,
working with our own hands:
being reviled,
we bless;
being persecuted,
we suffer it:
Being defamed,
we intreat:
we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things
unto this day.
I write not these things to shame you,
but as my beloved sons I warn you.
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you,
be ye followers of me.


Does this describe your life?

Do you believe Paul?

Arsenios

Aw you are kidding us

...you do not live like this.

This is the way of all holiness preachers, I bet right now you are sitting in a cushioned chair in your gown and slippers. Moreover the Corinthians were not living like that nor any other assembly though some were enduring persecution. Once again not even the other apostles were living like that.

Paul was setting forth his life in comparison to Cephas who led about a sister wife. In fact in the passage you quote Paul says of the Corinthians "ye are strong, ye are honourable" and further on he says "already ye live like kings and I would that ye did indeed reign for then we would share the reign with you"

Paul suffered all those things to bring the GOOD news and the GOOD blessing to others, he more than any of the others was like the Lord who left His throne above to come to our poor world .

He who was rich became poor that we might be the riches of God.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Those Canons were in response to Arminius' views (and thus Arminianism as it was understood at that time). They do not extend to address the view of universal atonement that I am setting forth (the view of Irenaeaus, Athanasius, and Gregory Nazianzen, all prior to Augustine and his debate with Pelagius, which so shaped western Christianity and set it on the path of Calvinism vs Arminianism) a view that evidently I am the only one here who holds and a view that has been so distorted now by others, who hold to "universal atonement," that probably no one is going to be able to get. Thanks for the invitation.

Do you understand universal atonement as meaning the fulfillment of Christ saying: "And I, if I be lifted up (on the Cross), will draw ALL unto Me..." ? And if yes, does this mean unending existence in condemnation for those condemned? And the reverse for those not condemned? All to be sorted out at the Last Judgment? That is an Orthodox understanding...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Aw you are kidding us

Not even slightly...

...you do not live like this.

Not fully... Not yet... But yes, in part, according to strength...

This is the way of all holiness preachers, I bet right now you are sitting in a cushioned chair in your gown and slippers.

You are cynical in this statement... I do not even know, btw, what a holiness preacher is... Sounds like a hypocrite the way you describe...

Moreover the Corinthians were not living like that nor any other assembly though some were enduring persecution. Once again not even the other apostles were living like that.

They were all martyred save John, and they were driven from Jerusalem in persecutions from the Jews... Paul was beaten with rods, and then stayed up all night rejoicing and singing Psalms in prison, saving the jailer when the earthquake opened the chains... There are Christians living this life as we speak...

Paul was setting forth his life in comparison to Cephas who led about a sister wife. In fact in the passage you quote Paul says of the Corinthians "ye are strong, ye are honourable" and further on he says "already ye live like kings and I would that ye did indeed reign for then we would share the reign with you"

Fanciful - The truth is that he exhorted his followers to be afflicted as he was, and many took that path...

Paul suffered all those things to bring the GOOD news and the GOOD blessing to others, he more than any of the others was like the Lord who left His throne above to come to our poor world .

Which overlooks that he wanted his followers to be like him...

He who was rich became poor that we might be the riches of God.

That is what he is describing, the narrow Way of affliction that Christ named that leads to Life...

Arsenios
 

jsjohnnt

New member
Those Canons were in response to Arminius' views (and thus Arminianism as it was understood at that time). They do not extend to address the view of universal atonement that I am setting forth (the view of Irenaeaus, Athanasius, and Gregory Nazianzen, all prior to Augustine and his debate with Pelagius, which so shaped western Christianity and set it on the path of Calvinism vs Arminianism) a view that evidently I am the only one here who holds and a view that has been so distorted now by others, who hold to "universal atonement," that probably no one is going to be able to get. Thanks for the invitation.
You are not the only one here who believes in universal atonement. Now, if that extends to "universal salvation," maybe you are the only one . . . . shades of Elijah, me thinks, as he sat under the tree wondering if he was the only true prophet of God. Turns out he was a true prophet, just not the only true prophet.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Those Canons were in response to Arminius' views (and thus Arminianism as it was understood at that time). They do not extend to address the view of universal atonement that I am setting forth (the view of Irenaeaus, Athanasius, and Gregory Nazianzen, all prior to Augustine and his debate with Pelagius, which so shaped western Christianity and set it on the path of Calvinism vs Arminianism) a view that evidently I am the only one here who holds and a view that has been so distorted now by others, who hold to "universal atonement," that probably no one is going to be able to get. Thanks for the invitation.

You are not the only one here who believes in universal atonement. Now, if that extends to "universal salvation," maybe you are the only one . . . . shades of Elijah, me thinks, as he sat under the tree wondering if he was the only true prophet of God. Turns out he was a true prophet, just not the only true prophet.

Not the only two...

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
 

jsjohnnt

New member
Not the only two...

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Cool.

Note: I could not capture all of steko's comment for some reason, but he was saying that he makes three, when it come to believing in universal atonement besides 5280 and myself.
 

TFTn5280

New member
Do you understand universal atonement as meaning the fulfillment of Christ saying: "And I, if I be lifted up (on the Cross), will draw ALL unto Me..." ? And if yes, does this mean unending existence in condemnation for those condemned? And the reverse for those not condemned? All to be sorted out at the Last Judgment? That is an Orthodox understanding...

Arsenios

My belief is that Jesus did draw all unto himself at the cross and in resurrection. In that regard, all are included in his atonement, it being inclusive and fully effectual, even unto their last breath, whereby if they take it in blatant, educated rejection of him will likely experience resurrection in the same state; they with eyes wide opened and still refusing him, therefore confine themselves to the second death, the death for which Christ did not die, and thus the death from which there is no escape.

Most evangelicals say if you don't place your faith in Jesus Christ, you're going to hell; however, they do not hold to a theology that confines infants to hell who die before having placed their faith in Jesus Christ. And so at some level they get this. They may not have thought it through, but if those babies do not stay in the grave, at the least, or go to hell by way of some Adamic curse, on what accord are they resurrected, if not in the universal atonement of Jesus Christ, his victory over death being the basis for their resurrection to life everlasting; because innocent or not, death itself would hold them in the grave had not something happened to defeat that death. That something is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the inclusion of all humanity in him. Death at the least would hold them in the grave had not the nature of death been changed forever in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, his resurrection being that which broke the chains of death for those infants.

Why then share the gospel with anyone, if no one goes to hell except for animated refusal of Jesus Christ? Because the Gospel is Good News and produces belief in those who hear it, it being the power of God no less into (eis) salvation for those who believe. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not only the Good News of salvation; it has the power to change lives right now on this side of death. It would change the world if it were truthfully taught. The few who hear it and don't believe stand in animated, educated unbelief and thereby condemn themselves in the refusal of the One they know has redeemed them. This the Bible calls false prophets and false teachers, anti-Christs and blasphemers of the Holy Spirit ~ in other words, not your average Joe. Evidently the change the Gospel produces in the lives of those who do hear and believe out weighs the loss of the few who hear it, know it, and reject it, because we are called to spread it unto the ends of the earth.

I waffle back and forth as to whether "condemnation" is unending existence. If hell and the second death are the same thing, then hell may actually be unending un-existence, the very thing that the first death would have produced were it not for the victorious resurrection of Jesus Christ. The second death, the one from which there is no resurrection, may very well produce the same return to nothingness, an unending un-existence, everlasting in that there is no undoing it.

Blessings,
 
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Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Not even slightly...



Not fully... Not yet... But yes, in part, according to strength...



You are cynical in this statement... I do not even know, btw, what a holiness preacher is... Sounds like a hypocrite the way you describe...



They were all martyred save John, and they were driven from Jerusalem in persecutions from the Jews... Paul was beaten with rods, and then stayed up all night rejoicing and singing Psalms in prison, saving the jailer when the earthquake opened the chains... There are Christians living this life as we speak...



Fanciful - The truth is that he exhorted his followers to be afflicted as he was, and many took that path...



Which overlooks that he wanted his followers to be like him...



That is what he is describing, the narrow Way of affliction that Christ named that leads to Life...

Arsenios

I do not believe you are hypocritical, but I do believe you are sincerely wrong. I have no war against Catholics [and so Orthodox christians] I do have war against their teachings, the church was usurped at the turn of the century. The gospel preached by Ignatias and co is as different from the apostles as night is from day. Their doctrines are according to the human mind.

Yes there are Christians experiencing torture and persecution, in Kenya and in China...they believe the doctrines I believe. By and large the Christians of the Orthodox and Catholic kind have been left alone under Muslim and Communist regimes, historically, I know very recently this has changed. It is Christians of the more radical kind who cop it. The sects.

Under Nazism the Catholic church actually entered into agreement with the Fascists.

There is no evidence that all the apostles were martyred apart from James.

What I have against the doctrines is that it makes the Christian way so onerous and unattractive only a mad person would follow it, and it's EASY to be a Catholic or Orthodox. I was brought up Catholic I know.

As long as you do the minimum in terms of sacraments you can live like the devil [and a great many do] but you will be accepted...people will even admire you. A great many of the clergy do. So they live laxity but preach for doctrine severity. Yes that is hypocritical.

Ah but there is penance.
 

TFTn5280

New member
Not the only two...

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Greetings. I take it you too hold to "universal atonement." Tell me, do you believe in a universal atonement that is sufficient for all but effective only for some, or do believe in the effectual atonement of all in the Person of Jesus Christ? Again, glad to have you aboard.
 
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