ECT Things known for ages--Acts 15

[SimpleMan77]

Until Paul no one preached the gospel of grace, the good news which is centered on the fact that Christ died for our sins. And the preaching of that gospel marks the beginning of the present dispensation of the grace of God.

So the present dispensation did not begin before Paul was converted.

So you are saying that any converts between the time of the cross and the time of Paul's conversion were still only justified through keeping the law, not through embracing the sacrifice of Calvary.

As I posted earlier, Paul disagrees with you.
He said that the death of Jesus freed everyone from the dominion of the law, just the same as a spouse dying frees the living, remaining spouse from being bound by marriage.


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[Jerry Shugart]

So you are saying that any converts between the time of the cross and the time of Paul's conversion were still only justified through keeping the law, not through embracing the sacrifice of Calvary.

Throughout time the only way that anyone was justified in the eyes of the Lord has been by grace through faith.

As I said, the present dispensation of the grace of God did not begin until Paul preached the gospel of grace. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).

In Bibliotheca Sacra, a journal published by Dallas Theological Seminary, Roy L. Aldrich quotes these three verses (Eph.3:2; Col.1:25; 1 Cor.9:17) and then says, "These passages use the word 'dispensation' (or 'stewardship') to describe the sacred commission or trust to preach the gospel" [emphasis added] (Aldrich, "A New Look at Dispensationalism," Bibliotheca Sacra, January-March, 1963, Vol.120, Number 477, p.43).

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace."

And no one preached that gospel before Paul so the present dispensation did not begin before Paul was converted.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Simpleman, thank you for your use of the wording "some MADs."

There are several different camps representing MAD on TOL.

As in any school of thought, people from within one school are bound to end up at key, different understandings on some things.

I am surprised that you have finally seen this.

And you appear to be the only "outsider" so to speak, who has.

What took you so long?

I automatically assume that because it is that way in every belief system. It is that way with people who see almost eye-to-eye with me.

There typically is kind of an orthodox viewpoint, and then people who deviate in differing degrees from that


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[SimpleMan77]

Things known for ages--Acts 15

I understand that some people, in their infinite wisdom, have determined that the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of God" are two different things.

A Kingdom is simply "the realm that a king rules over", and everything that is under his domain.
The "kingdom of God" is everyone who submits themselves to the rule of God.
The "kingdom of heaven" is everyone who submits themselves to the rule of heaven.
SAME THING! God rules over heaven, and all delegated authority in heaven operates under his ultimate authority.

Besides, Jesus simply said "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven". He did not say that delegated authority was only valid if the nation of Israel accepted him.


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I'd be interested to hear from any MAD on this. Is there a difference between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God"? See post above.

If there is a difference, what is the rationale behind you feeling that way?


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[Danoh]

I'd be interested to hear from any MAD on this. Is there a difference between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God"? See post above.

If there is a difference, what is the rationale behind you feeling that way?


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I'm testing out a simpler format.

You are my first guinea pig; unless you squeal against the followong :chuckle:

Would Heaven itself be the same as its' rule, say, over the Earth.

Remember now - not an "oowe! oowe! oowe!" from you, lol.

 

[SimpleMan77]

I'm testing out a simpler format.

You are my first guinea pig; unless you squeal against the followong :chuckle:

Would Heaven itself be the same as its' rule, say, over the Earth.

Remember now - not an "oowe! oowe! oowe!" from you, lol.

I'll keep my response simple: there is no scriptural or logical justification for differentiating between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and the "Kingdom of God".


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[Interplanner]

I'd be interested to hear from any MAD on this. Is there a difference between the "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God"? See post above.

If there is a difference, what is the rationale behind you feeling that way?


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"Heaven" is a Hebraism that meant God without a person having to say the name itself. And they were concerned about misuse.

 

[Lighthouse]

My point is that those MADs who say there is a difference between what Peter is saying in Acts 3:18 and what Paul is saying in Romans 16:25 like to say "Peter said the prophets had foretold this and Paul said it is a mystery that's been kept secret since the beginning".

Of course the prophets foretold of Jesus and His suffering. They didn't foretell the mystery, however. Otherwise it wouldn't have been a mystery/secret.:dunce::duh:

They conveniently stop before verse 26, where Paul says that this mystery is now made known by the preaching of the scriptures of the prophets.

That is not what Paul said. You are conflating. Not to mention you're being illogical, as shown above.

At best the mystery is revealed by the revelation of what the prophets meant that was not understood at the time of the prophets.

They are both pointing back to the prophets, and saying "you didn't understand what these scriptures in the prophets meant, but they were talking about Jesus Christ, the exalted Messiah".

No, that's not what Paul was saying, because that is not the mystery.

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
-Ephesians 3:1-7

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

LA

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

"Heaven" is a Hebraism that meant God without a person having to say the name itself. And they were concerned about misuse.

:chuckle:

Learned from books, not from the Book.

 

[Interplanner]

I know several rabbis who have pointed that out, but what do they know, giggles. Actually, some of them still do that today, while others do G-d.

 

[Interplanner]

Of course the prophets foretold of Jesus and His suffering. They didn't foretell the mystery, however. Otherwise it wouldn't have been a mystery/secret.:dunce::duh:


That is not what Paul said. You are conflating. Not to mention you're being illogical, as shown above.

At best the mystery is revealed by the revelation of what the prophets meant that was not understood at the time of the prophets.


No, that's not what Paul was saying, because that is not the mystery.

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
-Ephesians 3:1-7

The proper grammatical use of Eph 3:5-6 is that the mystery is the unifying things are true in the Gospel, not in the Law. Judaism thought they would be true in the Law.

I generally give D'ism a D for its grammar; they tend to tinker with English and don't check Greek case agreement. English has no objective way to fix case agreement.

 

[Right Divider]

I understand that some people, in their infinite wisdom, have determined that the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of God" are two different things.

No, some people just understand the Bible.

A Kingdom is simply "the realm that a king rules over", and everything that is under his domain.
The "kingdom of God" is everyone who submits themselves to the rule of God.
The "kingdom of heaven" is everyone who submits themselves to the rule of heaven.

SAME THING! God rules over heaven, and all delegated authority in heaven operates under his ultimate authority.

You always attempt to give an UNBiblical answer to what the Bible says. Why is that?

Besides, Jesus simply said "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven". He did not say that delegated authority was only valid if the nation of Israel accepted him.

The nation of Israel is to be the head of the nation and the gentiles nations will "flow" into them.

Rev 21:23-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. (21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. (21:27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

​

Isa 60:16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
​

Go compare Isaiah 60 with Rev 21.

 

[Right Divider]

"Heaven" is a Hebraism that meant God without a person having to say the name itself. And they were concerned about misuse.

Gen 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ​

So IP "interprets" this to mean "God created Himself and the earth". :dizzy:

Your posts get dumber every day!

 

[Right Divider]

The proper grammatical use of Eph 3:5-6 is that the mystery is the unifying things are true in the Gospel, not in the Law. Judaism thought they would be true in the Law.

I generally give D'ism a D for its grammar; they tend to tinker with English and don't check Greek case agreement. English has no objective way to fix case agreement.

"I IP, the great and mighty scholar have spoken.
You must believe me, because I know things.
All of those translators attempting to get the Bible into the hands of English speakers have wasted their time, as English is a faulty language and cannot be used for discussing what God is doing in the world.
Please toss all of those English translations in the trash and go back to the 'original' manuscripts!"

 

[Interplanner]

"I IP, the great and mighty scholar have spoken.
You must believe me, because I know things.
All of those translators attempting to get the Bible into the hands of English speakers have wasted their time, as English is a faulty language and cannot be used for discussing what God is doing in the world.
Please toss all of those English translations in the trash and go back to the 'original' manuscripts!"

It's there but D'ism and 2P2P go the other way. I can see it in English; at least, I can allow for it. But because 2P2P is so mistaken, it cannot see it in Eph 3:5-6. It seems to have no sense at all that a gaping split was outlined in ch 2 and 'healed' in Christ who makes the 2 one. If the Law could have done this, there was no reason for Christ to c0me, but Paul had to show that Christ makes the 2 into one etc.

RD, all you have to do is learn diagramming. Anyone diagramming in English would say, gosh it looks like it could go either way. 'Through the gospel' could just be a quiet genetive case add-on maybe to 'in Christ Jesus.' Instead it is a loud marker that the WAY in which the mystery was mysterious was that these three things are true in the Gospel. If they are true in the Gospel, the OT is obvious to be read completely different from Judaism. This 'through the gospel' is expressed to contrast with 'through the law' which Paul uses so many times.

The three things are that:
Gentiles are heirs with Israel
members of one Body
sharers together in the Promise in Christ
--if both the Jew and Gentile involved believe of course.

All existing lines must be redrawn in the shape of Christ and his NHNE.

 

[Lighthouse]

The proper grammatical use of Eph 3:5-6 is that the mystery is the unifying things are true in the Gospel, not in the Law. Judaism thought they would be true in the Law.

I generally give D'ism a D for its grammar; they tend to tinker with English and don't check Greek case agreement. English has no objective way to fix case agreement.

That is not the mystery.:nono:

τουτου χαριν εγω παυλος ο δεσμιος του χριστου ιησου υπερ υμων των εθνων ει γε ηκουσατε την οικονομιαν της χαριτος του θεου της δοθεισης μοι εις υμας
[οτι] κατα αποκαλυψιν εγνωρισθη μοι το μυστηριον καθως προεγραψα εν ολιγω
προς ο δυνασθε αναγινωσκοντες νοησαι την συνεσιν μου εν τω μυστηριω του χριστου
ο ετεραις γενεαις ουκ εγνωρισθη τοις υιοις των ανθρωπων ως νυν απεκαλυφθη τοις αγιοις αποστολοις αυτου και προφηταις εν πνευματι
ειναι τα εθνη συγκληρονομα και συσσωμα και συμμετοχα της επαγγελιας εν χριστω ιησου δια του ευαγγελιου
ου εγενηθην διακονος κατα την δωρεαν της χαριτος του θεου της δοθεισης μοι κατα την ενεργειαν της δυναμεως αυτου
-Ephesians 3:1-7 WHNU

Go ahead and show me what I got wrong.

 

[Interplanner]

The emphasis of the structure of 6 falls on 'dia tou euangeliou.' The three things said to be true are true in the Gospel.

Ie, there is no mystery that the believers from the nations (gentile) would some day share with Israel. Judaism believed that, although 2nd rate for them. But Judaism believed it would happen through the Law. Paul said no, it is here, now, and through the Gospel. Or as he would say elsewhere 'in Christ.'

So NIV is right to put the expression right after the verb of the whole thing.

This completely changes how a person sees OT 'prophecy.'

 

[Right Divider]

It's there but D'ism and 2P2P go the other way. I can see it in English; at least, I can allow for it. But because 2P2P is so mistaken, it cannot see it in Eph 3:5-6. It seems to have no sense at all that a gaping split was outlined in ch 2 and 'healed' in Christ who makes the 2 one. If the Law could have done this, there was no reason for Christ to c0me, but Paul had to show that Christ makes the 2 into one etc.

RD, all you have to do is learn diagramming. Anyone diagramming in English would say, gosh it looks like it could go either way. 'Through the gospel' could just be a quiet genetive case add-on maybe to 'in Christ Jesus.' Instead it is a loud marker that the WAY in which the mystery was mysterious was that these three things are true in the Gospel. If they are true in the Gospel, the OT is obvious to be read completely different from Judaism. This 'through the gospel' is expressed to contrast with 'through the law' which Paul uses so many times.

The three things are that:
Gentiles are heirs with Israel
members of one Body
sharers together in the Promise in Christ
--if both the Jew and Gentile involved believe of course.

All existing lines must be redrawn in the shape of Christ and his NHNE.

:chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

:chuckle:

Those three things makes you giddy don't they? But that's what he's saying: those three things are true in Christ.